Mazdaspeed 6 DYNO w/ GT2871R 356awhp/365tq

[roninsoldier83]

http://www.awdpirates.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37974


^^^That thread will explain all. If it doesn't directly link you, on Awdpirates.net go to Tech>The Dyno>Dyno Charts You Guys Have Been Waiting For, 1 Car, 5 Dynos

That guy went to 5 dynos with his car, all on the same tune, mods ect to show the differences. If you just want to impress people at sea level, yeah using MAC's fully corrected numbers will do just that haha. However, it's not really Nick's (tuner/partial owner at MAC) fault, Dynojets do NOT have the capability to set the correction factor, they auto-correct. The only choices you have are fully corrected, or no correction at all. The Dyno Dynamics they use a Revolutions Performance & Super Rupair have the ability to set their correction factors to whatever they want. At Super Rupair, they use a 1.15 CF for turbo cars year round, whereas at Revolutions they take the correction factor (whatever it might be for that day) and cut it in half, so if it's a 1.24 CF that day (depending on air temp, humidity, elevation ect), they would use a 1.12. Even though they're the same type of dyno, they use different CF's (1.15 is usually higher than what RP uses), and are at different elevations (Colorado Springs is a few hundred feet higher than Boulder), so typically people see about 5-7whp more at Super's dyno than they do at RP's.

If you want more comparable (to Super & RP's) numbers, at MAC you can request uncorrected numbers, Nick has no problem giving you both. However uncorrected MAC numbers are usually about 10-15whp lower than you'll see at Super & RP's dynos (it's actually a percentage, 10-15whp is just the average). Sure, MAC's dyno when fully corrected is overrated for what a turbo car at sea level would really put down, however going from their Dynojet to a Dynojet at sea level with an NA car, it's dead balls on. They just can't manipulate the values to give you more "accurate" turbo values, it's full correction or no correction.

Either way, it doesn't really matter IMO, as long as you're seeing it for what it should be: a tool to measure gains made from modifications & tuning. Nothing more. On their dyno (corrected of course haha), my STOCK turbo STI made 326whp & 408wtq on E85... will my car make that on a Dynojet at sea level? Snow balls chance in hell!! LOL! However, your average stock STI up here puts down around 265-270whp & ~280wtq on that dyno, so the MOST important thing that I recognize is that my car made an additional 55-60whp & 120+wtq (midrange is nuts!) over a stock STI. That's the ONLY thing that matters, the gains over stock. At sea level I know on a Dynojet my car would likely only read ~300whp or so (depending on conditions), but the peak values aren't really what matter, it's only the gains made over stock IMO.

On another note, making 356whp with a Speed6 on that dyno is impressive IMO! My old Speed6 was a factory freak, and with only a CAI & BPV put down around 257whp IIRC on that dyno, whereas most stock Speed6's on that dyno only put down 225-240whp... making over 100whp over stock is AWESOME!! Regardless of the dyno it made it on, that's a HUGE gain, and if it's on stock internals & pump gas, that's impressive IMO! Hats off to that guy. Although with the smaller T28 hotside, I figured torque would have been higher, but either way, I'm sure it has WAY more topend than the puny stock K04! Kudos to the owner, very nice!

[coloskydiver]

Here you go. its in the dyno sheet here on the site.

http://www.coloradomazdaclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3&highlight=dyno

So if your "old" car dyno'd on MAC's @ 253WHp and Eric's Dyno'd @ 356 then that mean his car is putting out 70% more power, plus the Speed6 is AWD.

This thread was not to bash someones business but rather marvel at the potential of these cars. I spoke with Eric a few weeks ago and he said that his car would pull so hard that it was actually scary to drive. Who said these cars aren't mod friendly.

[SpeedRacer]

read the graph it was 302 / 365.. I offered to pay for his dyno at super rupair BTW so lets see if he does it.

[Roadrnr06]

The cars are mod friendly. Considering that I had a stock turbo and my speed ran very fast. As far as too scary to drive? I have been in a two door 10.5 second civic. That pulled so hard it was scary.

Dyno's are great and all, but what it's nothing compared to putting it down on the track. Its not only the car, but it has to be the driver as well.

[chickenwafer]

I honestly think people get too hung up on dyno numbers. As long as my car feels fast to me (it does) and I can keep up with cars that cost more than mine (I can), then I'm happy (I am!).

The thing I run into is a lot of people that modify their car to attain a certain horsepower number and that fancy dyno sheet. So what? So I hear them say "Oh I want to get part X and part B and I'll have 500-rwhp man!" That's nice but focus on making the car what you want. A dyno is just a tool for tuning. They are so easily altered anyways it's pointless to compare a car that laid down 700-rwhp on a DynoJet in Florida to the same make/model that laid down 750-rwhp on a Mustang in Oregon. Pointless.

I also think A LOT of people underestimate how much xxx-rwhp really is. I hear it all the time with RX-8's, everyone wants some 400-rwhp beast. Besides the fact most that want that would have no clue how to maintain it, you are more than doubling your factory rwhp....it's going to be hard to handle. Hell, my car at just 7psi and 270-rwhp-ish is a beast. I'm not trying to brag, just people don't realize how fast a car can be.

I'm always reminded of a story my friend with a Cobra told me. He was hanging out at his Cobra shop getting work done when some rich kid came in with a 2004 Cobra, bone stock, and told the owner he wanted 1,000rwhp (you can do it on those). The owner instead took this kid for a ride in the shops 750 some rwhp mid 9 second beast. The kid nearly shit his pants. The owners the asked the kid if he stilled wanted 250-rwhp MORE than that shop car and he said 'No'.


But all that being said, dyno's DO have their place. I just don't like seeing people getting so hung up on them.

/end rant, sorry LOL

[SpeedRacer]

Agrede ^^

[bobopud]

lolol no no recognize from me. THATS MAC. No offense but go back to super rupair or somewhere with an actual real numbers dyno.

How can you go from dynoing at one place that shows AWD numbers at 300 which is impressive and then go to MAC for a dyno queen sheet?


If you want to pay for me to go to MAC I'll go dyno my car and show some inflated numbers too...

I respect what he's done with the car but to look for praise on this? No.

Eric has had muliple dyno sessions at MAC. He has also been to super and decided that MAC was the better choice for him. I have been to both and I agree with Eric.

Dyno numbers are strictly to see the advancement of your own car. They cannot becompaired between cars or other dynos. They simply show the gains, which is why it does not matter what dyno you use, as long as you pick one and go with it.

MAC has my stock dyno, so MAC is where I have stayed, plus they know their shit and have always treatd me extremely well.

[Roadrnr06]

In this case it wasn't strictly to see his own progression. It was to brag using the highest false numbers as possible.

Chickenwafer- agreed, make your car as fast as you want it to be. That's all that really matters in the end. But to that note, if it's "scary fast" perhaps he has done a little much for his own driving skills.

[chickenwafer]

In this case it wasn't strictly to see his own progression. It was to brag using the highest false numbers as possible.

Chickenwafer- agreed, make your car as fast as you want it to be. That's all that really matters in the end. But to that note, if it's "scary fast" perhaps he has done a little much for his own driving skills.

Yeah, if that's the case when you use intentionally known inflated dyno numbers then that's bad IMO.

And the mod everyone seems to do last (or never do) is the driver mod. Seriously, track days and wheel time is the best mod for your car.

[roninsoldier83]

Dyno numbers are strictly to see the advancement of your own car. They cannot becompaired between cars or other dynos. They simply show the gains, which is why it does not matter what dyno you use, as long as you pick one and go with it.

I agree 100%. Doesn't matter what the peak values are, it's the gains over stock/previous level of modification that really matter IMO.

Dynos are good for 1 more thing: tuning. They provide a safe environment to tune/make WOT adjustments. On a turbo car, depending on your gear ratios, you're not going to see full boost/peak load until 3rd/4th gear(s) normally. Which is why most tuners tune in 3rd/4th gear(s) typically, as there's no point in tuning in 1st if you're not even going to see peak boost due to a lower load. So, you CAN tune on the road, assuming you have a wideband (I do, but most people don't ever invest in one?!?), but doing so will mean you're going to have to make quite a few pulls going over the speed limit. To anyone whose ever road tuned/been in the car with someone who is road tuning, sometimes making pulls in 4th gear from 2000rpm to 7000rpm (or whatever you set your redline at), repeatedly going over 90mph on back roads can be a little nerve racking (aka getting a little paranoid about getting a ticket), not to mention can be tough to keep your eyes on the road, your tach & whatever you're using as a datalogger.

To avoid a potentially expensive ticket for making multiple pulls on a back road, dynos provide an excellent tuning alternative. Just my $.02

[chickenwafer]

I've tried street tuning my car and that's a bitch. It's damn near IMPOSSIBLE to keep an eye on all your instruments. I'm a little crazy because I'm watching my wideband, boost, ignition timing leading and trailing, MAF airflow, MAF volts, Calculated load, Intake air temps (important in Phoenix 120* ambient temps!) and more.

On top of that you have to drive, above legal speeds, on a road with traffic sometimes. You're begging for an accident or ticket.

Dynos were originally invented for that purpose, tuning. The fact they give you a power readout is merely a bonus.

I liked using the dyno for tuning to really nail down my ignition timing. I could advance timing slowly each run and once power started to plateau I could pull it back to avoid detonation. On the street you have no idea if your timing is too far advanced or retarded until you actually pick up knock (death of a rotary).

[roninsoldier83]

I've tried street tuning my car and that's a bitch. It's damn near IMPOSSIBLE to keep an eye on all your instruments. I'm a little crazy because I'm watching my wideband, boost, ignition timing leading and trailing, MAF airflow, MAF volts, Calculated load, Intake air temps (important in Phoenix 120* ambient temps!) and more.

On top of that you have to drive, above legal speeds, on a road with traffic sometimes. You're begging for an accident or ticket.

Dynos were originally invented for that purpose, tuning. The fact they give you a power readout is merely a bonus.

I liked using the dyno for tuning to really nail down my ignition timing. I could advance timing slowly each run and once power started to plateau I could pull it back to avoid detonation. On the street you have no idea if your timing is too far advanced or retarded until you actually pick up knock (death of a rotary).

I'm with ya, not a big fan of tuning on the street. Well, it's not so bad if you at least have another person with you that knows what they're doing, but still prefer a dyno.

Although I actually think a dyno's power/torque readout is fairly important. Only because without actually seeing your torque curve, MBT (maximum best torque/maximum brake torque) is easy to overshoot. Especially on higher octane fuels that don't necessarily knock easily. Last time my car was on the dyno, I went back to the stock TMIC (long story, don't ask), and upping the boost beyond 20psi was useless due to repeated pulls causing heat soak. My IAT's were high (around 41*C/105*FH IIRC) but not insanely high. At peak boost timing was around 22-23* ramping up to around 27* at redline, AFR's around the 11.5:1 mark, 20psi tapering to about 13psi at redline... no knock anywhere, no knock retard, no real signs that the motor didn't like it... except raising the boost while flowing slightly more air (MAF GS) didn't produce anymore power. Still no knock, just no power increase. You could see it on the torque graph, started to make more torque in the midrange until around 4200rpm, where torque was dropping off from the previous run as the TMIC was heat soaking, and since my IAT's are measured via pre-turbo MAF, they don't reflect the actual IAT's my motor is seeing (post TMIC).

Sure, with an iced down TMIC, probably could have raised the boost and made the car look like it was making more power, but on the street when it's warm outside, it would just result in heat soak/loss of power, as it was obvious post turbo charge temps were too high (pushing a 35 lb/min compressor at 20psi at over 5000+ft elevation will do that haha), over heating the poor stock TMIC. If I had no way to measure power on the street, I never would have known. As the car is running on E85, this stuff resists knock like you wouldn't believe, even though it's rated around 105 octane, think 110+ due to it's cooling charge being rated around 310 BTU's/LB. So, even without knock, I wouldn't have known that the car wasn't making anymore power. I've also seen people tune E85 stupid lean (13:1) under full load, and see no knock... didn't produce anymore power, and increased EGT's, so they richened it back up, but they still wouldn't have known if the car liked it or not without seeing a torque curve. Hell, a buddy of mine road tunes for cash in his free time, actually saw a WRX on E85 run as lean as 16:1 under load without knock... I'm sure the EGT's were insane, and just because it didn't knock during 1 pull doesn't mean it wouldn't melt a hole through a piston down the road, but still without some sort of dyno software (which they do have for road tuning these days ), it can be very tough to hit MBT, especially when playing with timing tables, adding more advance might not make the car knock, but it might not make anymore power either.

Again, not as important on knock-happy 91 octane piss water, but on really knock resistant/high octane fuels, being able to see gains in your torque curve is a very valuable thing IMO. Just my $.02

[chickenwafer]

Kinda off topic, but is E85 easy to get around here? I've wanted to do it, but there was no infastructure in Phoenix for it. Basically impossible to get.

I really want to go E85, but I also worry if I were travel with the car, if I can't find E85 in another town or state even. That would blow. I will prob wait a few years so more stations carry the stuff.

[Roadrnr06]

I'm with ya, not a big fan of tuning on the street. Well, it's not so bad if you at least have another person with you that knows what they're doing, but still prefer a dyno.

Although I actually think a dyno's power/torque readout is fairly important. Only because without actually seeing your torque curve, MBT (maximum best torque/maximum brake torque) is easy to overshoot. Especially on higher octane fuels that don't necessarily knock easily. Last time my car was on the dyno, I went back to the stock TMIC (long story, don't ask), and upping the boost beyond 20psi was useless due to repeated pulls causing heat soak. My IAT's were high (around 41*C/105*FH IIRC) but not insanely high. At peak boost timing was around 22-23* ramping up to around 27* at redline, AFR's around the 11.5:1 mark, 20psi tapering to about 13psi at redline... no knock anywhere, no knock retard, no real signs that the motor didn't like it... except raising the boost while flowing slightly more air (MAF GS) didn't produce anymore power. Still no knock, just no power increase. You could see it on the torque graph, started to make more torque in the midrange until around 4200rpm, where torque was dropping off from the previous run as the TMIC was heat soaking, and since my IAT's are measured via pre-turbo MAF, they don't reflect the actual IAT's my motor is seeing (post TMIC).

Sure, with an iced down TMIC, probably could have raised the boost and made the car look like it was making more power, but on the street when it's warm outside, it would just result in heat soak/loss of power, as it was obvious post turbo charge temps were too high (pushing a 35 lb/min compressor at 20psi at over 5000+ft elevation will do that haha), over heating the poor stock TMIC. If I had no way to measure power on the street, I never would have known. As the car is running on E85, this stuff resists knock like you wouldn't believe, even though it's rated around 105 octane, think 110+ due to it's cooling charge being rated around 310 BTU's/LB. So, even without knock, I wouldn't have known that the car wasn't making anymore power. I've also seen people tune E85 stupid lean (13:1) under full load, and see no knock... didn't produce anymore power, and increased EGT's, so they richened it back up, but they still wouldn't have known if the car liked it or not without seeing a torque curve. Hell, a buddy of mine road tunes for cash in his free time, actually saw a WRX on E85 run as lean as 16:1 under load without knock... I'm sure the EGT's were insane, and just because it didn't knock during 1 pull doesn't mean it wouldn't melt a hole through a piston down the road, but still without some sort of dyno software (which they do have for road tuning these days ), it can be very tough to hit MBT, especially when playing with timing tables, adding more advance might not make the car knock, but it might not make anymore power either.

Again, not as important on knock-happy 91 octane piss water, but on really knock resistant/high octane fuels, being able to see gains in your torque curve is a very valuable thing IMO. Just my $.02

You have the longest posts I have ever seen in my life lol. You don't seem to say as much on AWD... I can understand why, but you have really good knowledge.

[roninsoldier83]

Kinda off topic, but is E85 easy to get around here? I've wanted to do it, but there was no infastructure in Phoenix for it. Basically impossible to get.

I really want to go E85, but I also worry if I were travel with the car, if I can't find E85 in another town or state even. That would blow. I will prob wait a few years so more stations carry the stuff.

Yeah, E85 is pretty easy to come by here, IIRC we have over 50 stations in Colorado:
http://www.e85refueling.com/locations.php?state=coColorado&PHPSESSID=95e1011038711397964131541b5b6328
http://e85prices.com/colorado.html

There's 3 of them within 8 miles of where I live, so not too bad. I also have a Garmin Nuvi, and on their website I downloaded a customer POI that shows all the E85 locations in the country. Very useful. Bailed me out a couple times for sure

I've been running E85 for about 10 months now, it's great stuff. There are a few drawbacks though:

1. Cold starts can be a PITA. When it gets into the single digits specifically, with my car outside for 9 hours while I'm at work, instead of starting immediately, it takes 2-4 seconds or so, and sometimes I have to give it gas to keep it idling for the first minute or so as it doesn't like to ignite well in the cold. Once it's warmed up it's a non-issue, but I might be more hesitant if my car wasn't garaged nightly in the winter. It's always started for me, and above 15 degrees, it's not even a real issue, but in the single digits, it's kind of irritating.

2. You NEED larger fuel injectors, typically 30% larger to run the same boost levels at the same IDC's. As well as an upgraded fuel pump (or 2 in some cases haha) to avoid burning up the stock one trying to push so much fuel.

3. You will see a drop in fuel economy. Typically from 91 octane to E85, my average fuel economy loss is between 17-20%. Which, considering E85 is about 30% cheaper than premium (91 octane here) on average, I actually save money overall, but it sucks that I have to fill up more often. It would be nice to have a larger tank haha.



I don't know what you tune with, but if you decide to go that route, if possible I would definitely make 2 maps: one for E85 & one for 91 just in case you have to make a road trip. As you're absolutely correct, many states you can't hardly find it anywhere. If you have the ability, might as well just make a map for both.