Thinking of a modest turbo kit...

arctic_blue83 · Postby **arctic_blue83** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:14

I'm going to recommend just buying a Speed3. In the long run, it will be cheaper, well, depending on how far you want to go.

You can turbo an NA car, and tune it to run reliably, but typically, doing so on a high compression NA motor is going to involve you tuning the car pretty conservatively. I've known people that have run turbo'd factory NA cars for years without a problem, but then again, I've known a lot more that have had to invest in new bottom ends. Starting out with a car that was built for boost is the route to go for a variety of reasons, here's a few reasons why I would just buy a Speed3:

1. Stronger blocks. The Speed3's motor, has much beefier forged rods & crank, a compression ratio that's more boost friendly (at least with the addition of DI). Thicker cylinder walls to avoid flex under the extra pressure. If you have a 3i, you're also going to be down in displacement, and when it comes to spooling a turbo, 2.3L>2.0L. The Speed3 also has camshafts which were designed with boost in mind.

2. Everything is tried and true. Mazda's engineers spent a TON of time testing the motors, considerably more time than your local tuner would. They paid attention to things like heat shielding, and additional cooling requirements, to help keep under hood temps lower than they would be by just the addition of a turbo. Additional heat robs power, and adds to the likelihood of detonation. Mazda engineers kept this in mind.

3. Drivetrain. Not only do you get a stronger transmission, that was designed to hold the extra power, you also get an extra gear, a beefier clutch, and a LSD. I haven't checked, but I would be willing to bet that the MS3 probably has beefier half shafts, and of course Mazda's torque management system to help put the power to the ground, something that becomes difficult with high power FWD cars.

4. Resale value. Plain and simple, most people don't want NA cars that have been turbo'd. I guarantee 99% of the people you one day plan to sell your car to would rather have a factory turbo'd Speed3 than they would an NA turbo'd 3i. The Speed3 probably also has a better residual/holds it's value better due to the fact it's a limited production run.

5. Wheels, brakes, suspension ect. Simple enough, the 3i is a fairly balanced car from the factory, the brakes & suspension are about on par with the power the car makes. Turbo-ing it will take away from that balance, you'll have a car that hauls ass in a straight line, but the suspension/brakes will be sorely lacking. You'll find driving it at 10/10ths will become difficult, and most likely produce poor results if you ever plan on autoXing or tracking the car. With the Speed3, the car is balanced for the extra power, you'll get larger brakes, larger wheels with wider stickier tires, and a much stiffer/sportier suspension.

Overall, if you wanted to build up the motor, drivetrain, brakes & suspension to be on par with the Speed3's, you're looking at spending A LOT more money than you would if you had just bought a Speed3 to begin with. A mildly boosted (5-6psi) 3i *might* be able to keep up with a Speed3 in a straight line, but anything outside of a straight line, and the 3i will be sorely lacking. Not to mention, like people have mentioned, boost is addicting... it's hard to stop wanting more. Eventually, you might tire of only running 5-6psi, and decide you want to turn it up, yeah you can always tune for more boost, but running higher boost pressures on an NA motor is going to be hard on it, one bad batch of gas, or one hard pull on a hot day, or one boost spike and since you didn't have a lot of extra headroom on the table for safety, you might have just bought yourself a new motor. Just a word of advice, save yourself the headache, if you can afford, it, just buy the damn Speed3.

MazdaTom · Postby **MazdaTom** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:14

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arctic_blue83 @ Feb 16 2008, 11:46 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=25912]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

2. Everything is tried and true. Mazda's engineers spent a TON of time testing the motors, considerably more time than your local tuner would. They paid attention to things like heat shielding, and additional cooling requirements, to help keep under hood temps lower than they would be by just the addition of a turbo. Additional heat robs power, and adds to the likelihood of detonation. Mazda engineers kept this in mind.[/b]

Hopefully they learned this from the Mazdaspeed Protege. The MSP was essentially a NA Protege that they used lower compression pistons on and slapped a turbo, an LSD, sportier suspension, bigger brakes, and some minor cosmetic mods. There have been alot of MSP owners who have punched a hole in the side of their engine blocks because the connecting rods were the same rods used on the NA Proteges. Oops. Stock boost Proteges seem to be fairly reliable, but those that have turned up the dial, have quickly run into problems.

bastard · Postby **bastard** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:14

I figured I would get a lot of people heavily advising against this - which to be honest is why I had been kicking the whole idea around for so long anyway... Although the extra power would be nice, like I said before I totally wasn't factoring in the cars' mileage. Reason being is that an 04' theoretically shouldn't have 92k miles on it lol, but I DID drive the piss out of it... I'm pretty much leaning towards some NA mods now, which combined could net me around 20hp. Which I think is just fine for a daily driver. The car is already fun as hell to drive, even if it does lack serious grunt. And at 13k$ out the door? Shit, you REALLY can't beat that

lol.

But, I do appreciate everyone's input. Unfortunately the boost bug had me overlooking some key things that I really can't afford to fix easily if something should go awry (and with my luck, THEY WOULD).

Here's to looking forward to a Speed3 in 09'

Oh, also I noticed that they aren't selling Speed 6's for 08'???? When did this slip under my nose?

SpeedRacer · Postby **SpeedRacer** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:14

Bastard we aren't against it at all really. We are just worried about your car and don't want you to waste money

Speed6's went out in 07 last production year I believe? same with 08's for MS3's they only do 2 year runs for speed products.

bastard · Postby **bastard** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:14

Well shit.... I don't want to have to buy a used Speed3!!!

P.S. - thanks for thinking about my ride lol

SpeedRacer · Postby **SpeedRacer** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:14

Pff could buy mine

bastard · Postby **bastard** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:14

I wish I had the cash... I would probably look into it. I won't be in the market until at LEAST 09'.

Sorry man - usually auto forums are the best places to get used cars too.

arctic_blue83 · Postby **arctic_blue83** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:14

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bastard @ Feb 16 2008, 08:27 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=26005]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

I figured I would get a lot of people heavily advising against this - which to be honest is why I had been kicking the whole idea around for so long anyway... Although the extra power would be nice, like I said before I totally wasn't factoring in the cars' mileage. Reason being is that an 04' theoretically shouldn't have 92k miles on it lol, but I DID drive the piss out of it... I'm pretty much leaning towards some NA mods now, which combined could net me around 20hp. Which I think is just fine for a daily driver. The car is already fun as hell to drive, even if it does lack serious grunt. And at 13k$ out the door? Shit, you REALLY can't beat that lol.

But, I do appreciate everyone's input. Unfortunately the boost bug had me overlooking some key things that I really can't afford to fix easily if something should go awry (and with my luck, THEY WOULD).

Here's to looking forward to a Speed3 in 09'

Oh, also I noticed that they aren't selling Speed 6's for 08'???? When did this slip under my nose?[/b]

Josh is correct, the MSP, MS Miata & MS6 were all only limited production 2 year runs, hence why no more MS6. I'm assuming '08 will be the last year of the MS3, but only time will tell for sure. Since they're selling so much better than previous MS cars, maybe Mazda would be willing to extend it?!?

As far as mileage goes... well, that's always a factor, but it's not like you're crossing 200k, I'm sure the motor has plenty of good miles on it. My buddy Mark (brocksdad) has a '02 WRX wagon with over 85k miles IIRC, that he tuned for E85 not too long ago lol. He's running a VF22 turbo modified to run EWG, a FMIC, TBE, 650cc's, UTEC tuned ect. Last time out at Bandi he ran a 12.9 but I can't remember the trap speed, at least 106mph though. He's running a fully stock block, stock 2.0L, with open deck & cast internals. The block has never been opened or built, and the car has been modified for a LONG time. It may have over 85k miles on it, but damn that thing runs strong, pushing an extra 120+whp or so over stock. You can make a motor run hard for a long time, it just requires you to take damn good care of your car, and conservative tuning.

Don't get me wrong, I would still get a Speed3 over boosting your 3i, but just thought I would throw that out there.

MazdaTom · Postby **MazdaTom** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:14

Actually, the MSP was only offered in 2003.

arctic_blue83 · Postby **arctic_blue83** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:14

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MazdaTom @ Feb 17 2008, 08:47 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=26080]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Actually, the MSP was only offered in 2003.[/b]

Technically, yes, although IIRC, it was offered as both a 2003 and a 2003.5, granted it's still only "2003", but I always counted to 03.5 as a second model year, since the Protege was replaced with the 3 in 2004. You're correct though.

SpeedRacer · Postby **SpeedRacer** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:14

There goes Tom again our closet Mazda nerd :P

tsx_guy · Postby **tsx_guy** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:14

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpeedRacer @ Feb 17 2008, 01:13 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=26122]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

There goes Tom again our closet Mazda nerd :P[/b]

as opposed to Josh who is just a loser..

so how is sweating to the oldies working out for you? have you got your 'deal a meal' cards in the mail yet? :lol:

I had a set, but lost half of them and ended up starving everyday after breakfast...it sucked...

lost 2 lbs tho in the first 18 months. woo hoo!

DemonOfTheFall · Postby **DemonOfTheFall** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:14

Just I thought I would throw this in here if you haven't seen it already. F2 is preparing a series of turbo kits for the 3. The first of which will be a "stage 1" non-Intercooled sub $3000 kit that puts down about 210whp. The goal is for a bolt-on kit that can be run on a stock drive train without needing to upgrade anything. Sounds like that may be right up your alley.

tsx_guy · Postby **tsx_guy** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:14

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DemonOfTheFall @ Feb 23 2008, 05:37 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=27720]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Just I thought I would throw this in here if you haven't seen it already. F2 is preparing a series of turbo kits for the 3. The first of which will be a "stage 1" non-Intercooled sub $3000 kit that puts down about 210whp. The goal is for a bolt-on kit that can be run on a stock drive train without needing to upgrade anything. Sounds like that may be right up your alley.[/b]

nice find...

Thinking of a modest turbo kit...

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