Build thread

[speedjunkie]

Eric starter signal from the switch rarely has anything to do with slow cranking as long as your getting some voltage to the starter solenoid to trip it. I would check, in order:

Starter- an starter that sometimes cranks fast and then sometimes slow can have damaged. Excessive or repeated cranking really heats up a starter and will damage it. We often joke it is the most often abused part on a rotary.

I have a new starter on the car, because I originally thought that was the issue.

Battery cables- I am not a fan of battery relocations, mostly because they are not often done well. For an RX7 I would used at least 1/0 welding cable. The positive cable needs to go to the starter, then to the fusebox, and I often redo the alternator wire as well. Running the cable to the stock battery cables (yeah, I have seen this done multiple times) is asking for issues. The Ground cable needs to go first to the chassis near the battery, then from there to the engine block, preferably near the starter, then to the chassis again, usually the firewall or near the fusebox. I only use copper lugs for all of this because the steel ones often used will rust and corrode and can make diagnosis very difficult.

I'm using welding cable but I'm not sure if it's 1/0. It's about 4 gauge in size, I know that. I run the positive cable to the starter and it ends there, but the stock cable from the fuse box to the starter is still in place. I used to run the cable to the stock battery cable/location, but changed it a year or two ago.

The ground cable is grounded to the chassis right next to the battery, and also to the transmission, but not in one loop. Each one connects to the battery. I also have two or three added grounds on the engine that I put on back around 2008. Those are from the HKS Circle Earth kit but I'm thinking about making some with welding cable to replace those also. I think the lugs I used are steel, but I'm not sure, and they're pretty new since I made new cables about a year ago.

How did you redo the alternator cable? From the alternator straight to the battery or what? I'm still using the stock cables for that.

Solenoid connection- its rare but I have actually seen the spade terminal on the wiring harness at the solenoid have issues with the wires being broken or the terminal itself being loose and making poor contact.

This might actually be my problem now that you mention it. When I put the starter back in, I noticed the spade connector that goes to the starter solenoid is a little loose. I tried to crimp the inner (metal) portion of it together to tighen it but it didn't work, so maybe I'll just crimp around the plastic as well when I get home. It's loose enough that it could slide right off probably. I hadn't thought of that being a possible cause. I should probably do a continuity check on that wire too while I'm at it.

exactly ding ding ding

basically every wire finds it way to a ground at some point. So if a power wire goes to a motor it than travels through the motor and out to a ground wire.

Now if the wire was disconnected at all connections and was still grounding out than there is a short.

Eric, Let me know if you need me to stop by this weekend.

So that makes me wonder why Zico's was showing OL for the ST wire, but mine showed continuity. Now I'm wondering which one is right.

OK thanks! I plan on diving into this at least part of this weekend. I want to get this sorted out and it's starting to drive me crazy since I've checked so much stuff so far.

[RX-7 Chris]

Just send me a text if you need any help.

[speedjunkie]

Ok will do.

I crimped that spade connector down. Didn't help. I also put more assembly lube into the engine because I didn't feel there was enough, and figured it could help compression on first start also. I have a spare alternator I'm thinking of trying to see if maybe that's it somehow. I've also been told to jump the starter. Zico said I should charge the battery too.

[speedjunkie]

Zico came over today and after messing with the ignition switch determined that we were turning it too far to crank it. Now it cranks fast all the time, so we're pretty sure that's back to normal. We did charge the battery too though.

Now I'm not getting fuel pressure. For some reason my pumps aren't getting power, and I think it has something to do with not being told to turn on. Even when I was getting fuel pressure it still didn't want to start though, and we were wondering if the injectors weren't kicking on. Zico sprayed starting fluid in and it started shortly on that, so at least it ran again lol, if only for a few seconds.

[speedjunkie]

While we were working on the slow cranking, I noticed the indicator lights were going crazy. The light for pump 1 was staying on and the light for pump 2 was flickering. However, it's misleading because I was getting pressure to the fuel rails. Maybe I just wasn't getting enough. Another thing I noticed is that my fuel pressure dropped way faster than it used to once the pumps weren't on anymore. The fuel pressure used to take about an hour or so to drop to 0psi at the fuel rails, and now it's down in about 5-10 minutes. The only thing I changed from the stock setup was I flared the stock hardlines and put AN fittings on them and ran -6 line from the hardline to the return fitting on the fuel hanger. So I don't think that would make that much of a difference.

The car wouldn't start unless we sprayed starting fluid in, and it would die right away, so we figured the injectors might not be opening, even though I just had them cleaned and flow tested a few months ago at ID and they were good. We swapped from the Adaptronic Select that I haven't run on yet to the old PFC that I was using before. After this we noticed that I'm not getting any power to the pumps at all, and the indicator lights are off also. I checked to make sure I was getting 12v from the battery to the relays and I am, but I don't think I'm getting anything from the white/red stock wire. Looking at the schematic I used to wire the relays and pumps, it looks like that would keep the lights from turning on and also the pumps, since they're not being told to. But maybe I'm reading this wrong.

If I jump f/p to gnd in the diagnostic box I get fuel pressure, and it starts and runs on that. I also jumped the high speed fuel relay in the front relay box like Jesse showed me and that didn't work. I did a continuity check on the white/red wire from the fuel resistor to the relays in the back and it's good, so I jumped the wires in the resistor connector and it still didn't work.

And the slow cranking problem seems to be back.

Also, the lights stay on with fuel pressure, and go off when you touch the wires together. I'd like to have it wired up to not show the lights unless I lose pressure. Relays 3&4 were also clicking a lot at first but that went away.

[RX-7 Chris]

It still sounds like an ignition switch problem.

[speedjunkie]

For both of the problems or just the slow cranking problem? I used Morris' switch to troubleshoot and it did the same thing.

[RX-7 Chris]

For the pumps not going on and the injectors not firing. it sounds like they are not getting power in the start position.

[RX-7 Chris]

maybe it's that starter cut relay?

[D Walker]

Eric a couple of things about your setup I have been meaning to comment on.

One of the key yhings, and I see a lot of guys doing this, is that its a bad idea to run two high volume pumps all the time, especially at startup, idle, and light load. Its harder on the fuel system components, puts a lot of heat into the fuel which among other things can cause vapour lock, pre-ignition, etc., and makes tuning the start/light load/idle a PITA. Not sure if the adaptronic can, but ideally you want the ecu to tell the second pump when to come online, and then ONLY when it needed, again ideally when the fuel pressure drops under high load for example set the pump to come on if fuel pressure is less than 70psi when engine load is greater than 6psi and rpm is above 4k. 99% of the "tuners" out there are running way too much pump anyways. If you cant turn the pump on based on load/rpm/pressure you might try a combination setup with a Hobbs switch and a WOT switch so the pump comes on above say, 6psi of boost at WOT only.

Another thing is all these wiring issues you seem to be having. one thing that might help is that if possible use a ground to trigger relays, its easier on them and if the wire gets cut or melted its very unlikely to short and cause any drama, like a fire.
Another thing is splices and terminals. I avoid solder like the plague. They dont allow it in aircraft harnesses and that should be a sign. Good terminals and splices, proper crimpers, and heat shrink if at all possible. In high vibration areas a dab of regular old RTV over the connector and screw will sort of glue it in place and prevent it loosening up. Often times an intermittent problem is caused by the terminal being slightly loose and arcing between the terminal contacts. This can and will produce a layer of oxidation that prevents good contact and even though it looks fine there can and likely will be a serious intermittent issue.
Any time you use a switch use a good quality one, preferably with silver contacts and rated higher than what your using it for. Auto parts stores rarely carry the right stuff, I get my switches, terminals, etc. from E&G Terminal, Aircraft Spruce, and Wicks Aircraft Supply.

[speedjunkie]

For the pumps not going on and the injectors not firing. it sounds like they are not getting power in the start position.

Apparently they aren't getting power in the start OR run position without jumping the diagnostics box, but I'm trying to figure out where exactly that problem leads me lol.

maybe it's that starter cut relay?

I've been trying to find where that is on the car but I keep forgetting lol.

Eric a couple of things about your setup I have been meaning to comment on.

One of the key yhings, and I see a lot of guys doing this, is that its a bad idea to run two high volume pumps all the time, especially at startup, idle, and light load. Its harder on the fuel system components, puts a lot of heat into the fuel which among other things can cause vapour lock, pre-ignition, etc., and makes tuning the start/light load/idle a PITA. Not sure if the adaptronic can, but ideally you want the ecu to tell the second pump when to come online, and then ONLY when it needed, again ideally when the fuel pressure drops under high load for example set the pump to come on if fuel pressure is less than 70psi when engine load is greater than 6psi and rpm is above 4k. 99% of the "tuners" out there are running way too much pump anyways. If you cant turn the pump on based on load/rpm/pressure you might try a combination setup with a Hobbs switch and a WOT switch so the pump comes on above say, 6psi of boost at WOT only.

Another thing is all these wiring issues you seem to be having. one thing that might help is that if possible use a ground to trigger relays, its easier on them and if the wire gets cut or melted its very unlikely to short and cause any drama, like a fire.
Another thing is splices and terminals. I avoid solder like the plague. They dont allow it in aircraft harnesses and that should be a sign. Good terminals and splices, proper crimpers, and heat shrink if at all possible. In high vibration areas a dab of regular old RTV over the connector and screw will sort of glue it in place and prevent it loosening up. Often times an intermittent problem is caused by the terminal being slightly loose and arcing between the terminal contacts. This can and will produce a layer of oxidation that prevents good contact and even though it looks fine there can and likely will be a serious intermittent issue.
Any time you use a switch use a good quality one, preferably with silver contacts and rated higher than what your using it for. Auto parts stores rarely carry the right stuff, I get my switches, terminals, etc. from E&G Terminal, Aircraft Spruce, and Wicks Aircraft Supply.

I see what you're saying, and that's one of the reasons why I'd like to fix this issue so I can still at least have the low load and high load options, instead of just high load like everyone keeps telling me to do. I'll have to look at the Adaptronic and see if it can turn on the second pump later. As it stands, I think I might have one of them wired backwards anyway, even though I wired it up the way it says. The light on pump 2 flickers all the time, and the relays for the lights were clicking a lot again when I was home at lunch and ran the car. Anyway, one reason I went with two of these pumps instead of just one is having one as a backup/failsafe. In case one goes down, there will be less of a chance of blowing the engine, etc.

I'm not sure how to set it up to have the ground trigger the relay. I hate wiring diagrams as it is lol.

I don't normally use solder either. I used solderless connectors with heat shrink on pretty much every connection point in this specific setup. The only thing I don't have is proper crimpers, but I did a continuity check on all the wiring before putting it in.



One thing to remember about the fuel issue is that I did have fuel pressure before with the setup being exactly the same as it is now, so that leads me to believe that it's due to something failing rather than not grounding something or something like that.

[speedjunkie]

Also, the issue with not getting fuel before even when I had fuel pressure could be related to this though.

[speedjunkie]

I swapped the Adaptronic back in and got fuel pressure again. Apparently the lack of fuel was due to the Power FC. Now the car won't start again, but I'm thinking it's just due to the tune. I'm still having problems with the fuel pressure not holding steady. I put a fitting on another braided line and hooked it up to each pump, one after another, and they both pumped in the right direction. So I'm not sure what the problem is there.

[speedjunkie]

Andy and Zico came over tonight and helped me try to get the car started. We're pretty sure it's just about ready to start. I still have a few issues and found a couple new ones too.

The fuel pressure still drops too fast. Brian said it might be debris in my fuel lines that got into the injectors. I REALLY hope that's not the case.

Relays three and four still click most of the time.

The indicator light for pump two still flickers, but I think I have that one figured out. It's either the sensor is bad or it's out of adjustment. I swapped the wires between the two sensors and the problem moved to the other light. I hadn't even thought about trying that until tonight. I looked at the instructions and they say the sensor is adjustable as to what pressure it takes for the sensor to complete the circuit. I'm wondering if it's adjustable enough to get the lights to stay off until pressure is lost and THEN come on.


One of the new problems I discovered is that the wideband and EGT gauges turn off during cranking. Ugh, I hate wiring problems. I guess as long as they come on and stay on during driving though...lol.

The other problem is an oil leak/spray coming from one of the engine mount bolts and spraying onto the turbo manifold. I guess a metric shit-ton of RTV is in order lol.

[speedjunkie]

Kevin came over and helped me with a couple things. First, I adjusted the fuel pressure sensors and Kevin watched the lights to tell me when they turned off. I tried to test it by taking out the circuit opening relay and cranking the car, but I think by removing the power of the whole system, the results of the test don't mean anything lol. The lights do click on for a split second when you first turn the key to run though, so I guess that's something. I also need to test the power loss to the pumps to make sure the lights come on. Also, by adjusting the sensors, it got rid of the clicking noise from relays three and four.

Kevin also cranked the car while I looked to see where the oil was coming from. I have a tiny hole in my manifold on the inner side of the front runner, so I need to weld that up. I wish that was the only one. The other leak I might have to pull the engine to fix. It's coming from the engine mount bolt that I posted a pic of last night. It's worse than I thought though. My oil level actually dropped. Now, I could do it the right way and pull the engine and flip it over and really try to seal the crap out of it, or I could first try to put RTV around the bolt and pan and hope it seals it (which is what I really want to do lol). Or I could pull the engine up a bit, pull the mount off, pull the studs out, seal the pan from inside the bolt hole and put a lot of sealant on the outside of the pan also. I really don't feel like pulling the engine out completely. Not yet anyway. Ugh. What I don't understand is my oil level can't possibly be high enough anymore to leak the way it's leaking. I just don't get it. One other thing that's odd is that the oil I put in is brand new, but the oil that's leaking is black.