Latest Chickenwafer Dyno Runs, WTF Torque??

[Zanity]

major congrats man.
now who says rotaries are torque less?
seriously though thats so exciting.
think we could get a video taste of the next dyno run?

[chickenwafer]

Ya I can prob video the next one.

I brought my tri-pod and camera last time but honestly when you're on the clock with dyno time the last thing I want to do is stop and take pictures, haha! It's the last thing on my mind, really, but if someone else is there they can do it...

I now have my boost controller retuned and I am finally hitting the boost I want...sort of. It peaks where I want (13.5psi by 4,000rpm or less!!!) but it falls off to 6.5psi then soars back to 13psi. It's like the engine has two powerbands almost, like a 2-stroke, haha. The first wave of boost hits me in the gut, then it slows down, and the second wave makes it almost uncontrolable.

I just need to modulate the duty cycle of the solenoid better so it holds boost instead of falling off like that. Once I do that I'm golden.

I also found out I was running some seriously retarded trailing timing I accidentally imported from a "safe" map so I was able to pick up to 4-7 degrees in advance trailing timing. I think it will make a big difference on the dyno.

[Huzer]

I still need to check out your ride some time. Although my poor 8 will pale in comparison!

[chickenwafer]

LOL we all mod with different tastes.

Yeah man if you want a ride or anything that's cool. Just be aware once you do you will be buying a turbo! I'm serious. I rode in Jeff's car and within 3 months I bought a kit Haha

[roninsoldier83]

That's awesome man! That's a LOT of torque for a Renesis! Very nice

Our cars make really similar power (on MAC's dyno I made 326whp & 408wtq), but I bet they feel drastically different! My car hits hard down low, but then drops off up top... whereas your car likely keeps pulling hard until redline. I won't lie, I would rather have your powerband

Although the only way a Subaru is ever going to come close to a powerband like that is if I ran something a good bit larger than the stock turbo. Maybe one day....

Congrats buddy!

[chickenwafer]

Thanks man! Means a lot coming from you!

Yeah Subies make INSANE torque. There was an article in Modified Magazine (coquincidently the same issue my friend's RX-8, Jeff Abrams, car was featured in) about AMS tuning a 2006 STi.

They did baseline pulls, then added the Cobb AP, AEM CAI, catback exhaust, Vibrant manifold, more tuning, removed the tumbler valves, a manual spring-and-ball type boost controller, more tuning, a downpipe, and more even more tuning and ended up with an amazing 404-awhp and 420 ft-lbs of torque on pump gas and the stock turbo!!! I am still very envious of the "mod-ablitly" of STi's and Evo's, LOL

I was really still only scratching the surface of my GT30R snail and with my boost controller sorted I am hoping for 365ish-rwhp and hell even 330 ft-lbs of torque. The highest torque anyone has posted yet on a dyno run was 290ish ft-lbs and that was a 414-rwhp dyno!

I am still planning on an E85 conversion. But thanks to our stock returnless fuel system and factory 5/16" fuel feed line I need a whole new fuel system, AN lines and fittings, fuel rails, injectors, and pumps (I'm going to run an in-tank Supra TT Denso 265Lph pump and an external Bosch 044 pump), an FPR, and more, so the whole thing will set me back $1600 or so. Convincing the girlfriend is going to be hard

[roninsoldier83]

Bah, Modified Magazine must have been either running an upgraded turbo or were on a super high reading dyno/skewing results or posting HP figures at the crank/not wheels, as a stock turbo STI has a snow balls chance in hell of putting down 400whp lol. Technically our little snail is a 35 lb/min compressor, should really be rated around 350bhp, but people see a little bit more power when really pushing them.

For reference, the highest stock HP STI I've ever heard of on MAC's dyno put down 350whp, and that's on E85, catless, FMIC, TGV deletes, full intake, MBC, ect OpenECU tuned. Every bolt-on you can imagine, and they have a pretty high reading dyno. On the local Dyno Dynamics (Super & RP), I've heard of a couple of freak STI's putting down 280+whp on the stock snail, but that's the exception, not the rule. Over on IWSTI, a good stock turbo on your average Dynojet puts down around 300whp with basic bolt-ons & tuning, and people who REALLY push the stock turbo on race gas/E85/Meth put down in the 330-350whp range, but we're talking about stupid high boost pressures for a turbo this size at those power levels (24+psi out of a 35 lb/min compressor), read: flame thrower & can't hold nearly that amount of boost at redline. Subies are good for making stupid high torque (big bore for a 4 banger+small turbo hotside), but not too great at holding it (aka, making big peak horsepower numbers).

Now an EVO on the other hand.... sons-a-bitches lol..... with their stupid EVOIII/super 16G equivalent coldside (around 38-39 lb/min compressor), and their MUCH larger 10cm hotside (ours is around a 7cm ), FMIC ect, now THEY can put down BIG power on the stock snail. People have broken into the high 10's on stock turbo EVO's. I digress.

You're right though, depending on the cold side, at only 13psi & those numbers, you're nowhere near the limits of a GT30R! That's a hell of a nice turbo! I would LOVE a GT3071R, but can't bring myself to fork over the cash for one. Are you running a 71 or 76 coldside? Either way, 13psi is barely breathing for that turbo, it's got a lot left in it.

Sounds like a pretty penny for a new fuel system... hopefully you can convince the GF to understand it's "for the cause"

[chickenwafer]

Really? Damn my world is shattered LOL

As far as I know the test was done at AMS and it was awhp numbers, and AMS uses a pretty accurate dyno. I dunno *shrugs*

I know the Evo uses a much larger turbo than the STi- laying both side-by-side is pretty funny. It's damn impressive you guys can squeeze that much juice out it.

Mine has a 71 hot side (0.86 A/R), but the biggest thing holding it back is the 2.5" inlet. I had to go that small otherwise my intake pipe wouldn't fit- you should see how tight my setup is sometime. Mine is rated up to 48-50lbs of air which the Renesis will eclipse at around 350-365rwhp but I plan on over-running mine a little.

Since I can't fit it I want a GT35r 76mm compressor wheel to fit inside a machined 30R compressor housing- I know it's been done before. That will give me a potential 500-rwhp

[roninsoldier83]

Yeah, it's depressing how much bigger the EVO's turbo is haha

The really sad thing is, a stock location bolt-on turbo for a Subaru will never have the same size hotside as the EVO. They come with 10cm hotsides (I heard the EVO X comes with an 11cm hotside?!?), whereas you really can't fit anything larger than an 8cm hotside in the stock location on a Subaru. Which, they run the small hotside to try and compensate for the several feet of piping from our heads to the turbine itself, i.e. to try and minimize lag. The EVO gets away with running a stupid big hotside due to it's turbo being mounted directly off the exhaust manifold & having a twin-scroll turbine housing (helps drastically with spool). The larger hotside allows them to hold more boost up top, whereas our turbos taper significantly.

I'm really interested in what tuners are going to do with Subaru's new turbo location on the Legacy GT. They mounted the turbo underneath the motor, right off the exhaust manifold (like most turbo cars), and I heard that drastically cut down on lag & made peak torque available at a much lower RPM. Pretty good stuff:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2492901-post26.html

^^^Actually made me jealous when I first saw that haha. I'm wondering how long it will take them to move the new design to the WRX/STI, and why they didn't do it years ago.

I hear ya on the small compressor inlet... my stock inlet is 2.4" That's what holds me back from getting a Garrett stock location turbo. All the stock location Garrett's (GT30's, GT35's ect) for a Subaru run a 3" inlet... meaning, if I want to use one, I have to swap over to a 3" inlet hose... sounds easy right? Running a 3" inlet hose under the intake manifold (like stock), is a nightmare. Re-routing of hoses everywhere, very long painstaking process that involves removing my TGV's.... I don't want to lose my TGV's, mostly because they help drastically with cold start, which on E85 in the winter is a VERY big deal to me. Not willing to give up reliability (aka, being able to start the car in the winter) for a GT30.

Then there's also rotated mount kits.... which seem like the answer, as your inlet no longer runs under the intake manifold. Unfortunately, this option does not work with stock style DP's, meaning if I'm having problems passing emissions & need to swap my stock downpipe back on, I have to swap EVERYTHING: turbo, intercooler, inlet/intake, downpipe, up-pipe ect. Seriously, not something I want to do every 2 years.

If I every upgrade, I'll likely just stick with a 2.4" inlet Mitsu based turbo (likely a TD05H-20G 8cm2), and give up some power for the sake of keeping things simple.


I'm afraid of the GT35, always have been lol. Why you ask? In the Subaru world, I've never heard of anyone running a GT35R for over 30k miles. Ever. Maybe there's one out there, but 99% of the time, over on IWSTI, I see a thread titled "Just tuned my new GT35R!", shortly followed by "Just blew my motor, what internals do you recommend", followed by "Just blew my built motor, returning the car back to stock" lol. Seriously, on an EJ-series Subaru motor, I wouldn't run anything larger than a 44-47 lb/min compressor, as beyond that, you're just asking for trouble. Well, unless you want to run very low boost pressures, and an uber-conservative tune, in which case, kind of defeats the point of having the huge turbo.

Man, I really do rant sometimes haha.

[chickenwafer]

Haha you're rants are fine, I love learning about other cars and you and me seem a lot alike.

On a rotary we flow nearly 75% more air for any given rpm than a conventional piston engine. I know STI's can make over 400-awhp at around 450 grams/sec of air or so if I'm not mistaken but that' only around 340ish for a 2-rotor Wankel. We get robbed LOL.

Thus we need larger compressors in order to support more air. A prime example is the fabled HKS T-51R SPL turbo. On an FD they can make 650-rwhp or so, not much more. But an RB26 they can pump out of 900-awhp. So not fair! Haha

I have a solution for your turbo problem- simply register the car in a non-emissions county like where I live with a PO Box here. Then you can go rotated mount turbo all day long.

I've been eyeing STI parts for a while- I really like the AMS and Crawford rotated v-band mount kits. I just love v-band flanges, LOL. makes life sooo much easier.

The intake pipe to my compressor runs thru a motor mount bracket LOL it's so tight. Part of the compressor housing sits in between two of the exhaust manifold runners! And there is about 1/8" of an inch in between my turbine housing and the floor board of my passenger floor, and that's after beating out some of the section with a deadblow.

To remove/install my downpipe I have to remove a motor mount and drop the engine on one side LOL. It's less than ideal. But I still and always want more- I am looking at getting a Garrett GT3582R or a Precision SC8862R (same thing just not liquid cooled CHRA like the G-unit) and building a custom turbo kit...

I honestly didn't know Subie's blew motors that easily. Even built ones? That sucks. I had a friend in Phoenix who owned a 500-rwhp FD that was Teh Sex, sold it, bought an 06 blue STi that the previous owner did some bolt-ons with. He blew the motor within 3 weeks. Got a rebuild motor, Crawford short block, forged internals, custom intake manifold with reversed throttle body, and a GT35R...blew the motor dyno tuning it with under 250 miles on it LOL. Hit 27psi and 14.8 AFR! He made 580 some odd awhp and over 600 ft-lbs of torque before it blew tho Haha. His fault for pushing a non broken-in motor.

I guess he finally got it sorted and yet another rebuilt motor but then had a w/g line melt and hit 30 some psi! He blew the heads off the block! It was funny as hell (well, not for him).

At that point he sold the STi and bought another FD. He said it was more reliable! It kind of scares me that someone would go back to a turbocharged rotary thinking it's reliable LOL. Honestly any motor making that kind power or an easy 3x factory output is going to have issues, piston or rotary.

[roninsoldier83]

Yeah, Subies weren't made for big power. I've heard of guys running a 20G (44 lb/min comrpessor) for over 80k miles without an issue, but anything much bigger than that... well, plan on blowing a motor every once and a while haha. At sea level, on your average Dynojet, Subies can run pretty reliably around the 350-380whp mark, as long as it's not a really aggressive tune. I've even seen people run ~400whp power levels & make them last for a while (exceptions, not the rule), but really, once people start going beyond that point, I never hear of motors lasting too long.

A Subie can probably get away with a conservative tune on a GT3071R (for a Subie, typically rated around 47 lb/min) for a while without issue, but stepping it up to a GT3076R or larger (compressors over 50+ lb/min), your motor isn't likely to last too long if you plan on pushing the turbo towards it's peak potential. GT35? Forget about it. It's not a matter of "if", but when the motor will blow. If you get 30k miles out of a GT35 powered EJ257 you're doing pretty good IMO.

Due to our unequal length exhaust manifold & turbo placement (some would even say unequal length fuel lines contribute) ect, our cylinder number 4 runs hot/hotter than the other 3 cylinders. Placing an EGT probe into the runners coming off all 4 cylinders this has become a proven fact. Also, by design boxers don't dissipate heat as well as an inlines/are more prone to det because of this. This is a large reason why Subaru's are usually tuned to run richer than Mitsu's, in order to keep the heads cool to stave off detonation. Also since we have longer exhaust piping to get to the turbo, heat=energy, and since more heat is dissipated & physically takes longer to spin the turbine, it's harder for an EJ-series motor to move as much air as a 4G63 while producing the same amount of exhaust energy. I.E. we have to push the turbo harder to produce the same amount of power due to lost energy from extended exhaust piping.


Also, our bore & stroke (99.5mm vs 79mm) isn't exactly rev friendly. Combine this with heads/cams that are more geared towards mid-range torque, and you have a motor that wasn't really designed to make big peak horsepower numbers. As we all know, horsepower is just a measurement of torque sustained/torque vs RPM. These cars aren't known for their high revving abilities, and they weren't meant to. The STI dominates Group N rally... which, in a class like that, mid-range torque is valued to a much greater degree than peaky topend power/lower torque sustained longer, as much of your time will be spent in the mid-range.

People that run GT35's pushing 25+psi of boost, making peak torque/horsepower in the upper RPM's end up running extremely high EGT's, specifically out of cylinder number 4, and crack ringlands. These motors are just more prone to det than an inline, so a combination of a turbo that's pushing 30psi and actually HOLDING it at 7000rpm, well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that EGT's are going to be stupid high if you try and sustain those pressures at that high of an RPM, especially since these motors run so hot. Cylinder number 4 runs hotter than the others, so typically once the motor starts to knock, there goes your ringland. A hairline crack is all it takes to lose compression.

It's very rare to hear of Subies burning holes through pistons or snapping rods, I would say around 80% of turbo Subaru motor failures are cracked ringlands and probably around 80% of those occur on cylinder number 4.

The guys with stock turbos running 24+psi of boost at sea level typically don't run into the same problems though as our turbos have fairly small hotsides, just about every stock turbo STI, regardless of peak boost pressures produced is going to taper back to 12-14psi at redline. Which is why these cars are more "reliable" with smaller, more mid-range friendly turbos, as they don't hold peak boost pressures at high RPM's (<---Recipe for det).

Fortunately, I knew all of this prior to buying my STI I owned a WRX for a couple years... cracked a ringland running a larger turbo.... on cylinder number 4 haha. It's so common it's not even funny. One of the main reasons I run E85 actually. Sometimes I would prefer to go back to 91 for convenience, but E85 is known to lower EGT's by close to 200 degrees on many occasions! This stuff is HARD to det! *knock-on-wood*

There are a lot of fan boys out their that think "their car" whatever it may be, has the greatest motor ever lol. I'm not one of them. The STI has many strengths & things I love about it, but making big peak power numbers is not one of them, and I'm ok with that. They do however make stupid high mid-range torque numbers, which, on the street I do enjoy Due to their powerband though, not the best motors for freeway pulls. They're best accelerating from 0-90mph (1st-4th), beyond that, their powerbands aren't suited for high speed pulls.

If your friend was wanting to make 500+whp reliably, it was a damn good idea for him to sell his STI haha. Although, his decision to get a turbo rotary to do the same thing strikes me as odd lol. IMO, if a person wants to make 500+whp without too many issues: buy a big, American V8. There's no replacement for displacement haha. A lightly blown (~5-7psi), 500whp LS series V8 is going to be a hell of a lot more reliable than some small displacement motor pushing 30+psi to make the same power. If he "needs" an import/doesn't want a domestic car, I would recommend something more along the lines of a twin turbo MKIV Supra, RB25/26 swapped Nissan, even the TT 300ZX isn't a bad choice, and among more modern cars, the new twin turbo inline-6 BMW's are looking like they will have a lot of potential.

That's just my $.02 though. To each their own

[chickenwafer]

It's funny it sounds like you guys have a lot of the same issues us rotaries do haha. Do to the compact construction and high egt's rotaries produce we overheat easily and can wrap plates and housing. Our coolant also flows from the front to the back of the engine,. And since our combustion flame front is moving heat swells the whole lower half of the engine.

Coolant only runs in certain jackets and the coolant that runs in the combustion zone flows from the first rotor to the second rotor, so it becomes super-heated since it sees two intense flame fronts. This can lead to hot spots in the rear rotor so when a rotary blows it's almost always a seal in the rear rotor since it can run up to 40 degrees hotter!

What kind of EGTs do you guys see in boost? It's not uncommon for the Renesis with it's static 10:1 compression ratio (rotary compression is different but to keep this easy LOL) and high airflow we can peg 1900*F EGTs! Enough to wrap and melt most common stainless exhaust headers/manifolds at sustained temperatures.

I love rotaries but I know they have serious downfalls. Torque is one of them since we effectively have a short "stroke". If you ever see the journal (lobe technically) of the rotaries eccentric shaft (equiv of a crank shaft) you will see will. The rotor travels a relatively short distance as it sweeps inside the housing. But the actual surface area of the rotor is huge and thus the horsepower. Rotaries are also extremely thermally inefficient. Older design rotaries with peripheral exhaust ports like in RX-7's work great for turbos since there is essentially nothing stopping the exhaust gases from hitting the turbine wheel- exhaust gases are forced out by an extreme pressure differential and the rotor itself forcing the gases out directly out a port with no valves or obstructions (once ported) and directly into a runner of a manifold and into the turbine housing- thus two 654cc static displacement rotors can push a 70-some mm turbine wheel in a giant 1.04 A/R hotside. The Renesis is a different story tho, with it's emissions regulated side exhaust ports...

I agree with the turbo V8 statement, LOL. I know he wanted to stay with an import and loved the style and handling of the FD which is why he got another one. I guess he considered an Evo but thought they were too played out. I'm not going to lie I would love to have a 1,000-AWHP Evo 9 if even just for the nut-swinging statement that I can go around saying I have a 4-digit wheel horsepower 4-cylinder, but driving it would require a support team that rivals the Paris Dakar Rally effort and they just become unusable at that point, especially on the street. Drivablitly is gone on an >3.0 liter powerplant and <500 wheel horsepower. It's just a track slut at that point or dyno queen.

That's honestly why I'm not chasing numbers really. Sure I want to hit 350-365-rwhp that would be sick, but I'm not going to get hung up on it. I think once you start chasing numbers you've lost it...just be happy once the car is fast to you. Sure numbers quantify things but they shoudn't be the value of your car...

[roninsoldier83]

Off boost, we usually see around 1400* EGT's, in boost on the other hand... well, it varies. For turbo motors with low compression ect, people usually tune Subie AFR's under WOT to around 10.8-11.5:1 which is conservative compared to EVO's/DSM's/SRT-4's ect. With rich AFR's & moderate timing values, WOT EGT's are usually around 1600-1700* (fairly safe IMO). Run these cars a little leaner or don't give enough timing, and you're looking at 1800+. Hence why we run our cars so rich LOL. We use extra fuel to help keep EGT's down

We see eye-to-eye when it comes to >3.0L motors making 500+whp needing an entire pit crew just to keep it together haha. Assuming the car actually sees a pressure besides vacuum haha. The only exception I can possible think of is maybe an RB26DETT?!? Technically, it's a 2.6L, and as I understand has a pretty beefy bottom end, but that would be the freak exception, not the rule haha.

We think a lot alike

[chickenwafer]

RB26DETT's are BEAST motor but the stock crank is horribly unbalanced and it has some oiling issues. Nissan is actually pretty good about over-building most of their previous motors, the SR, RB,and VG family of engines all have forged counterweighted cranks and forged connecting rods. I think the pitfall of Nissan engines has always been bearing or oiling issues.

All this talk about Evos and stuff has got me interested in them...I would lie if I said I never thought about parting out my 8 and getting an Evo 9. I like the Evo X but it's more than I want to spend really- I can buy an Evo 9 and after parting out my car have $12k or so in mod money

So I was browsing at AMS' website, I really do love their parts. GT35R turbo kit on a fully hand TIG welded stainless manifold, TiAl 44mm external w/g, an easy 600-awhp! I need to do more research, tho...not sure how much power Evos can make on stock internals.

And the main reason I didn't buy an Evo when I go my RX-8 was insurance costs, but since I have some volitions dropping here in December I actually ran a quote and it's only about $40 bucks more a month for an Evo 9 haha.

The other reason I passed on an Evo/STi is just because everyone has one, LOL! I don't like blending in and every tuner and their mother knows at least one guy with one of those cars. And let's be honest a 400-awhp or so Evo isn't that rare. But a 400-rwhp RX-8 like mine (at least potentially) is pretty rare. I think I am one of two or three turbo'ed RX-8 in Colorado!

I think I may have just gotten to the point where "Fuck being unique, I just want to go fast!!!" and get there with as little issues as possible. I know Evo's have their issues but what car doesn't? Modifying a factory turbo car is MUCH easier from my experience than turbocharging/supercharging a factory N/A car...although my 8 has pretty good thus far. It's all in the tuning.

I wonder if most Evo owners are like most 350Z/Mustang owners I've run into- all talk about BIG potential power but few do more than an intake and wheels, LOL. I remember when I was in Arizona I was a car show and talking to some fellow rotary owners about my car and the turbo, etc, and this guy who owns a 350Z comes up and asks, "How much power does it make?" I told him 300-rwhp at that time that was the highest I dyno'ed...he then says, "That's it? My Z makes that stock (it doesn't LOL)" I then told him at was at low boost, 9psi, and I can turn the boost up more and tune for it and make more, closer to 365ish. Stupid 350Z douche replies, "Well I can put a turbo on mine with a built block and make 800-rwhp, Z's rule" Seriously he said that....so then I asked, "What do you have on your car now?" He had an intake and lowering springs, lol, yeah, you're getting a turbo.

Damn I always end up rambling on when I talk to you man!

[tbot]

this thread is awesome haha. I do agree w/ you tho chicken in that chasing numbers isn't necessarily the smartest/greatest thing. I know w/ my car I'm going to be happy w/ 320-340 awhp and just leave it at that. I think with the speed motors they're a bit new and unknown as far as potential and what not. In the end tho, it should be about what makes YOU happy and not everyone else. Sure I might not have the fastest car out there, but like you said, I have...will have...a very fast very unique car out there, and to me, thats what matters most