Challenges

[Stealth01]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpeedRacer @ Apr 22 2008, 09:59 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=42369]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

^^^ You've got the drip too eh... damn.. lol j/k[/b]

LOL. Well, you know, some things are just funny as hell.

Oh, and of course I do get chased by Kia Rios.

[MS3_Mafia]

Well what do you know... had another "challenge" last night on the way to work from some kid in a White boosted Prelude. I came up to him on I-25 and passed him thinking nothing of it but did notice his 3 Gauge Pod on his left side. Cruising down the freeway he comes up quick behind me in the fast lane. I get over to the right and he pretty much wants to go from a roll. Gee what a surprise! Lets just say I took his candy before I "walked" away from him ever so easily.

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MS3_Mafia @ Apr 23 2008, 02:36 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=42380]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Well what do you know... had another "challenge" last night on the way to work from some kid in a White boosted Prelude. I came up to him on I-25 and passed him thinking nothing of it but did notice his 3 Gauge Pod on his left side. Cruising down the freeway he comes up quick behind me in the fast lane. I get over to the right and he pretty much wants to go from a roll. Gee what a surprise! Lets just say I took his candy before I "walked" away from him ever so easily. [/b]

You walked a turbocharged Prelude?!? I'm assuming you saw a FMIC or heard a BOV?!? Not doubting your story, but turbocharged H22's are pretty damn quick... I only know of one over on http://www.highaltitudeimports.com his screen name is doogie, has a '97 Prelude, and put down 478whp & 350 ft-lbs on a Dynojet. Here's a link to their "Official Dyno Thread":
http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/showthr...t=turbo+prelude

I'm sure there's other turbo Prelude's around that just don't post numbers, but I wouldn't think a close to stock Speed3 would pull them with ease. Might pull them, but I would think it would be a fairly close race.

[RX-7 Chris]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX 8 Ghost @ Apr 22 2008, 09:40 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=42360]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Yea the zoom zoom boom shit is real funny. When you get in my situation come talk to me. I'll be the one pointing and laughing.[/b]

I was in your situation not long ago, does that mean I can point and laugh at you.

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX-7 Chris @ Apr 23 2008, 09:05 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=42400]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

I was in your situation not long ago, does that mean I can point and laugh at you. [/b]

I've been in that situation... a few times... and it was never funny to me. Though it does go to show, if you wanna play, you gotta pay. Modding cars in many cases causes problems, to include blown motors... this is something that we all pray doesn't happen to us, as it sucks when it does.

It's pretty common though when turboing an NA car without tuning. Or even on a turbo car, swapping on a larger turbo without tuning. Tuning is key, I can't stress that enough, gone are the days of swapping parts and getting more power without negative repercussions. On newer cars, in order to make more power safely, you need to tune the car. Which is why if someone is interested in making a decent amount of power over stock, I will always recommend their first mod be some form of engine management they can tune with. Engine management first. All other parts later. After installing parts, limp car to dyno/tuner and tune the car.

[RX-7 Chris]

there was a guy in grand juntion that put a larger turbo in his wrx. He blew the motor. this was back when wrx's first came out.

[chunbelievable]

I had a Navigator roll up to me and punch.... Really? A Navigator? I let him go without even the slightest increase in throttle, these challenges are beginning to piss me off.

[MS3_Mafia]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arctic_blue83 @ Apr 23 2008, 08:51 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=42398]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

You walked a turbocharged Prelude?!? I'm assuming you saw a FMIC or heard a BOV?!? Not doubting your story, but turbocharged H22's are pretty damn quick... I only know of one over on http://www.highaltitudeimports.com his screen name is doogie, has a '97 Prelude, and put down 478whp & 350 ft-lbs on a Dynojet. Here's a link to their "Official Dyno Thread":
http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/showthr...t=turbo+prelude

I'm sure there's other turbo Prelude's around that just don't post numbers, but I wouldn't think a close to stock Speed3 would pull them with ease. Might pull them, but I would think it would be a fairly close race.[/b]

For one thing H22's are 200hp right? Add a turbo kit and what about another 60hp. I'd still walk from one, TQ FTW. I knew that the Prelude Type SH's have H22's and the one I raced obviously didn't have one but was still turboed. It was the body style previous to the Type SH, more like a '96. And "doogie's" Prelude is obviously a VERY built Turboed H22. He definately would of raped me, no doubt about it.

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MS3_Mafia @ Apr 23 2008, 01:39 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=42448]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

For one thing H22's are 200hp right? Add a turbo kit and what about another 60hp. I'd still walk from one, TQ FTW. I knew that the Prelude Type SH's have H22's and the one I raced obviously didn't have one but was still turboed. It was the body style previous to the Type SH, more like a '96. And "doogie's" Prelude is obviously a VERY built Turboed H22. He definately would of raped me, no doubt about it.[/b]

Well, it would be depending on what turbo he was running, and how much boost he was pushing.... here are a few turbo kits for the 'Lude:
http://www.turbo-kits.com/prelude_turbo_kits.html

The Turbonetics and Rev Hard kits claim between 75-100hp (except for the RH Stg 3 kit that claims 200hp), but the only one available for the 92-96 Prelude is the Turbonetics kit, which would only work with an H22... maybe it was some ghetto fabbed kit, or he just had an "interfooler" Either way, I think the 1997-1998 were rated at 195HP while the 1999-2001 made 200HP. While the 1992-1996 Prelude base has 138HP, the Prelude Si has 177HP, and the Prelude Vtec has 190HP. The base and Si did not have Vtec engines. The 92-96 Prelude with the Vtec is named the Prelude Vtec.

As far as torque goes... there's one thing you're forgetting. Torque is multiplied through gearing. If you're making an extra 100 ft lbs or torque, but can't stay in a lower gear as long, in some cases, the torque advantage can be negated. This is why people at sea level in S2000's have been able to hang with torquier cars like the SRT-4 & 350Z. Shifting a close to stock Speed3 much past 6000rpm is a waste of time, whereas the H22 redlines at around 7500rpm (and it's actually usable), so with the extra revs, it can stay in a lower gear for a longer period of time, increasing it's torque multiplication factor.

So, if your car is making an extra 100 ft-lbs of TQ, let's say 300 vs 200, and let's say you both have equally short gears (Honda's usually have very short gears for lots of TQ multiplication, but then again, so does the Speed3), and let's also say they both have table top flat torque curve (which is a lie lol), so we only have to measure peak torque. Now, let's say after calculating tire diameter, gear ratio & final drive, both cars have a 2.1 multiplication factor in 2nd gear (example) and a 1.5 multiplication factor in 3rd (random numbers I'm making up lol), so, with that multiplication factor, in 2nd, your car is making 630 ft-lbs, whereas the H22 is only making 420 ft-lbs... sound like a huge gap, only, due to the fact that you have to shift 1500 rpm sooner, he can stay in that gear longer, for let's say an additional 8-10mph... during that time, you're in 3rd gear, where your multiplied torque factor drops to 450 ft-lbs... whereas he's still making 420 ft-lbs, you're still making more torque, but not by much... this is why Honda uses very short gearing on most of their VTEC motors, and why they are able to keep up with cars that have much more torque.

Another thing to keep in mind, is torque curve. While the Speed3 has a TON of TQ for a 4 cylinder, it's TQ curve is very different than the H22's. Take a look, here's one for the Speed3:


Here's one for the H22:


Now look at the Speed3's peak torque... it's at around 3200rpm, an RPM that you probably won't see when freeway racing, but after peak, look how it takes a complete nose dive... from peak around 257wtq, but by 6000rpm, you're running out of steam, only making around 150wtq.... whereas look at the Prelude's peak torque, it's around 5200rpm, but guess what? It drops off in the upper RPMs, but not nearly as bad as the Speed3. From the Speed3's peak torque, to redline, it loses about 160 ft-lbs (257 peak vs around 95 at redline), around 6000rpm, it's really not making much more torque than the Prelude. Granted every dyno reads differently, but according to these 2, at 6000rpm, the Speed3 is making about 150wtq vs the Prelude's 135wtq or so, not as much of a difference as you would think. If on the freeway, assuming the Prelude had slightly shorter gearing, wouldn't really be noticeable.

With that said, the Speed3 makes a SHITLOAD more low end torque. Which not only makes it a friendlier daily driver, not having to rev it up to get moving around town, but also helps on a road course/autoX where you find yourself in the mid-range a lot... that's where the Speed3's torque advantage really comes into play. It would also help to get you off the line in a drag race from a stop.... but would not be of much help in a freeway roll race, as it drops off so drastically. This is why for freeway roll racing, many people will recommend large, torquey NA V8's... look at the torque on this GTO:


^^^Look how flat that curve is, it doesn't drop off nearly as bad as a turbocharged 4 cylinder with a small to mid-sized turbo (like the MS3's stock K04), and yet still has a ton of torque throughout the entire powerband... impressive. You can make a 4 cylinder hold the same peak torque numbers in the upper RPMs (most useful for freeway racing) but doing so will require you to have a large turbo (GT30, GT35 ect), and doing so will take away from your spool time, which will obviously affect your low-mid range torque, making the car less street/autoX friendly. Even with the same peak torque numbers, on a turbo 4-banger, we'll never see torque curves that flat. That's why they say "there's no replacement for displacement" It's true.

With all that said, if the guy you raced was running a 92-96 Prelude non-VTEC with some ghetto ass turbo kit & no tuning, there's almost no doubt in my mind, you would smoke his ass. I misunderstood your first post, and thought you ran a '97+ H22 powered turbo Prelude, in which case, I would say it would be damn close. [/rant]

[firestoned]

I passed a hoshy poshy couple in a newer Volvo S60 on sunday on I-25 going about 80, he sped up to be next to me, I looked over, and his wife was laughing at him, he looked at me and lunged forward a little bit.... I looked at him and laughed... he took off, and I followed him... didnt take long I was next to him, not even at full throttle in fifth, then punched it and left him..... WHOS LAUGHING NOW...

[T-time]

i think you and his wife

[MS3_Mafia]

Thanks for explaining all that Brandon, It really does help to understand the Peak hp and tq in different engines.

Thats a funny story Eric, retarded yuppies in their Volvo.

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MS3_Mafia @ Apr 23 2008, 04:18 PM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=42461]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]</div>

Thanks for explaining all that Brandon, It really does help to understand the Peak hp and tq in different engines.

Thats a funny story Eric, retarded yuppies in their Volvo. [/b]

No problem Jack

If you want to see how much running a larger turbo will affect your powerband... check this out, it's from a stock Neon SRT-4 (which IIRC comes with Mitsu TD04-16G) swapping over to a GT3071R, check out the difference:


Notice that small bump, where peak torque occurred around 3100rpm on the stock turbo... then notice peak torque on the 3071R, which peaks around 5000rpm. You lose some power/torque below 3500rpm, but good lord, does it make up for it. Hell, even stock, SRT-4's don't taper much torque, owing to the Mitsu 16G they come with stock, good spool characteristics, without a lot of loss up top. I've always thought the 16G was a GREAT turbo for a street car (Note, the 2.0L EVO VIII & IX used a twin-scroll, Super 16G and people have ran low 11's on the stock turbo). Pulled that from over here:
http://www.atpturbo.com/root/releases/release051404.htm

In all honesty, a GT3071R isn't all that big, the comparo would be even more drastic with a GT3076R or GT35R. To show the more drastic results, here's an SRT-4 with a GT3076R:


^^^Notice the torque ramp up as the car built RPM, until it started to drop around 5000rpm. That's a freeway racing SOB if I've ever seen one

Either way, I love this shit haha.

[chunbelievable]

I think I going to turn this into a blog. I had a classic mustang harassing me, I walked very very slow away from him at a light and he punched it to race me, dude I was doing less than the speed limit. Anyways when I heard him punch it I broke almost to a spot and he went flying by. He broke hard soon after and once he realized there were no cops around I think he got the point, I wasn't going to race him.

[arctic_blue83]

I had a couple run-ins last night on I-25, coming from Thornton, on my way home, at around 9:30pm.... the wife was in the car with me, I'm driving about 3-5mph over the limit or so, just cruising on our way home... and 2 cars pull up from behind, one was a white 1G DSM with a FMIC, the other beside him was a silver SRT-4.... neither one of them have a passenger... the DSM pulls along side of me, and starts revving, at this point, I can hear his turbo spool/BOV/exhaust, obviously not close to stock, I look over, smile, and wave him on, the SRT-4 next to him, takes the hint, and drives off.... the guy in the DSM thinks it's funny, and starts laughing, at this point, the wife says "he's laughing, WTF?"... I had already gestured that I wasn't interested as the wife was in the car, even though there was no traffic around... he starts mashing the gas pulling forward quickly to try and goad me... I see a GSX (Turbo, AWD) badge on the back of his car, along with an ugly slanted exhaust.

He does this a handful of times, where he hits the gas, and slows back down. The wife looks at me again and says "What's his problem, you should just run him so he'll go away"... so, after at least a minute of his antics, I revved at him, he went WOT, and I downshifted to 4th... he gets walked, I shut it down around 95mph or so, from about 60mph to 95mph, I pulled at least a couple car lenghts... when I slow down, and he catches up, well, he's no longer laughing, and no longer wants to play

At this point, we caught up with the SRT-4... who slows to my speed, and starts revving... not sure what he had done to it, but I could hear at least an intake and exhaust, along with wastegate flutter.... I look over at the wife who says "Might as well"... so we both punch it, and he pulls ever so slightly. By the time I let off, my bumper is at his front door. Quick little bugger I'm thinking if I didn't have a passenger in the car, it might have been dead even, but either way, I didn't expect to win, as stock vs stock, from a roll, it's a close race, and this guy wasn't stock, and all I have is a AP Stg 1 reflash that added maybe 10hp to the wheels (if that). Anyway, the SRT-4 guy was cool, we both gave the thumbs up, and drove off. I really wish we would have got off at the same exit, as I would have murdered him from a stop... maybe next time.

It's sad, before that the STI was undefeated... the closest I had run anyone before, was a white SRT-4 with a ton of small decals and an intake, which we were dead even..... it's sad, I've pulled 350Z's (with ease, not hardly a race), slowly reeled in a $50k 330bhp M Coupe, pulled a Porsche Cayman (which even surprised me), I've pulled a couple modded WRX's, pulled my buddy's stock Speed3, a couple LS1 powered F-bodies, a red modded MR2 turbo, 1G & 2G turbo DSM's ect.... and yet, the only car I've had a problem with is a damn Neon SRT-4

Then again though, those cars are so easy to get power out of it's not even funny haha. dommo_g on MAC's dyno, in his SRT-4, with just simple bolt-ons, put down 290whp & 368wtq: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/domm...o8-26Medium.jpg

My STI might be able to match a bolt-on SRT-4 like his for horsepower, maybe even put close to the same power down to the wheels (even with my higher AWD drivetrain loss) on just Stage 1... but then, the SRT-4 (2800 lbs) is still 400-500 lbs lighter than my STI (3200-3300 lbs), and has gearing better suited to freeway runs (I have to shift to 5th, as my car redlines in 4th, 7000rpm, at around 99mph), so they're still damn tough from a roll Whereas my STI is more of a "from a dig" kind of car My gearing ROCKS from a dig, or low roll (5-10mph), gears are so short, the car pulls like a madman from a low speed.

Anyway... just a couple more weeks.... until my Stealthback is here, and the car gets a real horsepower increase when I flash over to Stage 2




Completely off topic... the new Caliber SRT-4's are no joke, one of the guys over on http://www.cosrtoc.com just claimed to run an almost stock (panel filter) Caliber SRT-4 to 14.470 @102.10 up here: http://www.cosrtoc.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2998

If that's the case... then what I read was true, about Dodge programming their ECU's to push more boost as altitude increased, this is an excerpt from Sport Compact Car:
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/roadtest...srt4/index.html

"Rather than cap the boost level to reduce torque steer, the team at SRT have created a variable boost delivery system that seeks to maintain an optimum level of torque at any altitude or air inlet temperature. In first gear, it's designed to hit 215lb-ft of torque, 230 in second and 265 in third gear and up. And it will deliver however much boost pressure is required to hit those torque numbers. At sea level, the maximum boost pressure is around 12psi, although SRT engineers have seen levels as high as 15psi to maintain a steady 265lb-ft."

^^^If that's all true, we should all be wary of the Caliber SRT-4 from a roll lol. Very clever on Dodge's part, it's too bad other turbo cars aren't programmed the same way