Since buying my 2015 Audi A3, I've been experiencing some significant knee pain in my right knee. I've attributed this to a couple of things in the A3:

-The seat bottoms in the A3 are too short and have little in the way of thigh support. I'm not freakishly tall, but am still around 6'2” and have relatively long legs. The lower part of my thighs seem to stick almost halfway off the front of the seats, leaving them pretty unsupported and putting a lot of pressure on my knees/thighs- specifically my right knee/thigh since it is working the pedals.

-The pedal position of the gas/brake. The gas pedal is pretty far from the brake, both in height and lateral distance. I end up moving my right leg a lot, rather than pivoting on my heel, which again, puts more pressure on my knee. This wouldn't be a big deal, except I do a lot of stop and go traffic driving. I did some research and apparently Audi did this on purpose after an “unintended acceleration” lawsuit they had filed against them in the 80's because people were accidentally hitting both pedals at the same time.


I noticed this issue after the first week of driving and have been attempting to correct it since then. I've done the following:

-I've adjusted my seating position countless times- tilt, height, distance and recline. Nothing seems to help.

-I tried stuffing some foam in the front of a seat cover to offer more thigh support. No help whatsoever, almost made it worse.

-I bought a new pedal kit that raised the gas pedal slightly higher than it's previous position to make the pedals closer together. Didn't do anything.

-I picked up a good knee brace to help while driving. Again, I think this actually made it worse.

-I've contacted Audi USA, expressed my issues/concerns and requested some sort seat trade + cash on my part for the sport seats in hopes that will solve my issue. Thus far, it's been over a week and they haven't bothered to respond.

-I keep myself in good shape and generally workout 3-5 times a week when I can. I've been working more on exercises to strengthen my knees/thighs (more squats, jump rope, ect), but I'm not seeing an improvement thus far. Maybe this will help in time.


Overall I've been trying to solve it, as the pain is getting pretty constant. It's mostly a dull, aching pain, but occasionally it turns into throbbing pain that makes my knee want to lock up. To say I regret not getting the Sport Package with the manual thigh extensions is an understatement, but the cheapest A3 I could find that had the Sport Package was an extra $5000 over the MSRP of my A3 and all I would really want is the damn driver seat. The A3 sport package was also considerably more expensive than the upcoming Golf R, which made it even harder to justify the extra cash.

Before anyone asks, yes, I'm sure the car's seating/pedal position is the issue and I've never had this problem with any other vehicle I've ever owned. Interestingly enough, I drive other vehicles at work all night for 10 hours shifts, and after a while, the pain in my knee/thigh goes down. Then, I get back in my A3 to drive home and 5-10 minutes into my commute, the pain flares up again. The seats in my work vehicles are softer and more supportive and the pedals have better spacing than my A3.

This puts me in a predicament, as my job sometimes depends on my physical conditioning. I carry a lot of gear on me at work and sometimes things get physical. I had to sprint a couple of times this past week, and during the incidents, my adrenaline kicked in and all was well.... but after-wards, when the adrenaline wore off, my knee was killing me and it felt like it might lock up a few times as I was going upstairs. It hasn't actually locked up, it's still strong and I can perform every duty I need to accomplish; but over time, if I don't work on solving this, it could turn into a more serious issue.


I have a list of potential solutions, but was wondering what you guys think. Here are a few thoughts I've had:

-Contact an upholstery shop and see if they can modify the seat in order to add more thigh support to include some sort of an extension. I've actually contacted about 6 of them in the local area.... 2 have gotten back to me.... 1 recommended just getting aftermarket seats and the other seemed very apprehensive about touching them and wouldn't even commit to working on them. I think this is partially due to the fact that Audi now puts airbags in their seat bottoms- so people are hesitant about touching them. I can make more of an effort to get a quote, but the end result might not be very pretty and will likely be pretty pricey.

-Get aftermarket seats. My biggest problem with this is the OEM seats have airbags built into them. My second biggest concern with this is keeping my new car warranty. I can disable the airbag sensor pretty easily so it doesn't throw a CEL on my dashboard, that's not an issue. The problems are if I run into any sort of electrical issue with the Audi, they might try to say I “tampered” with the car's electrical system and not cover a claim. They also might tend to scrutinize any claims I might have a bit harder if they see a set of Recaro's where the OEM seats are supposed to be.... Bigger problem would be the fact that apparently my insurance company isn't a big fan of me removing an airbag from the car. It's possible that they might drop my coverage, or worse case scenario, I get into an accident and they deny a medical claim because I removed a standard safety feature from the car. I'm a bit hesitant about going this route... plus, it's tough to find aftermarket seats that would match my car's light titanium grey leather interior. And a few of the seats that do come in the same color leather are very pricey- $2000+.

-Get the OEM sport seat put in and hope that solves the problem. Probably my best option, but apparently it would cost about $3000+ for just one seat. I could live with one seat looking a bit different, but it's still pretty pricey.

-Try to retrofit a set of used seats from another Audi/VW. It's too bad I didn't get black leather... if I did, I would just pickup a set of used (and much more supportive) seats out of a VW GTI and figure out a way to make them work- problem solved. It's also too bad the passenger seat area of the A3 is so narrow, as other wider Audi model seats might not fit (A6/A8, possibly A4/S4, ect), but no one can confirm that one way or another. The seats might have different bases that might make custom brackets necessary.... and again, tough to find them in the relatively rare titanium grey leather interior color. I found a set of used Audi R8 seats in the same color online, but they were $2500 for the pair and a local shop quoted me as much as $300 a piece for each bracket... and that's assuming they would even fit the car's narrow dimensions; otherwise it's a very expensive “experiment”. Granted, the asking price for the R8 seats is likely a little higher than some other model's seats, but finding sports seats in titanium grey leather is proving to be very difficult. Black leather would have been much easier. I could also wait until someone wrecks an A3 w/sport seats, or new Audi S3, but for the specific color leather I'm looking for, along with the rarity and newness of the car, that could be a very long wait.

-Another option would be to try and live with it and hope my body eventually adapts to it... It's been a month, and it seems to be getting worse, not better, but maybe another couple months would give my body more time to adapt? I'm not naive enough to think so, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it'll sort itself out. Or I could just live with the constant pain.... again, that's an option, but it might eventually affect my ability to work, which is a valid concern of mine.

To say that I'm frustrated right now is an extreme understatement. I understand that Audi intends to also market this car heavily in the Chinese market, where the average height is quite a bit shorter than my lengthy frame, but this is ridiculous. I sat in the base A3 several times before buying one, but my only extended test drive was on Audi's “test driver” A3 with the sport package seats, so I didn't foresee an issue like this... It's also an issue that really only presented itself after a considerable amount of stop and go miles- not something I likely could have noticed on a test drive.

At this point, I'm open to all reasonable suggestions or recommendations. I'm leaning towards the upholstery shop modification route, but I'm having a hard time finding someone willing to do the work.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Here's a photo of my OEM seats:


^^^^Due to the lighting, they look more like a tan leather, but in the light, they're actually a really light grey, almost white.

Here's the optional sports seats:


^^^You can see how the seat bottoms stick out a bit further while static, but the real party trick is the fact that the front bottom seat cushion extends an extra 2+ inches even further, offering considerably more thigh support.

Lastly, here's a set of VW GTI seats:


^^^As you can see, VW catered to taller driver's to begin with by making the seat bottoms stick out significantly further than the seats in the base A3.

Any positive ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I didn't read your post through, so I apologize if you covered this.

Where is the knee pain at?

I started getting knee pain when driving a while back. It is not automobile specific. I aggravated my knee with high volume, high load squatting. It still bothers me from time to time. I found that I need to drive with my legs much straighter than I typically like to keep this from happening. For what it's worth, at the height of the problem, I couldn't sit through a movie at a movie theater comfortably.

I don't have a solution, but I have the same issue with my wife's Grand Cherokee. We've had the vehicle over a year and I can not get comfortable in it, either the driver or the passenger seat. To the point where I recommend the Focus every time we go some where. The seat bottom is absurdly short, and leaves me with no thigh support regardless of where I position the seat. I've tried everything, and the only thing I could come up with is avoidance. Thankfully, the seats aren't pain inducing, but they aren't comfy.

That's honestly one reason I went with the base ST. The seats, while not terribly supportive as far as bolstering, were large enough and provided great thigh support for me. It's interesting now to read long term test of STs and the same journos that were saying "get the Recaros, you're a fool if you don't!" now complain about living day to day with those seats, resorting to calling them a flaw.

Obviously getting rid of the A3 so quickly is most likely not an option. It seems the only viable solution is (hopefully) working with Audi on a sport seat swap and hoping that alleviates the problem.

Now I would like to know from both of you where the pain is? At the top of the knee cap?

I'd agree that a stock sport seat would be worth a looksee and a better option than an aftermarket racing bucket. Did you talk to your dealer? I'd try one out for an extended driving session and see if it is indeed the problem.

Shadowden wrote:I didn't read your post through, so I apologize if you covered this.

Where is the knee pain at?

I started getting knee pain when driving a while back. It is not automobile specific. I aggravated my knee with high volume, high load squatting. It still bothers me from time to time. I found that I need to drive with my legs much straighter than I typically like to keep this from happening. For what it's worth, at the height of the problem, I couldn't sit through a movie at a movie theater comfortably.

The pain is on the top/front part of my knee. I'll try driving with my leg extended a bit more, although when I do, I feel more pressure at the back of my knee.

Did your knee pain ever go away?

Huzer wrote:I don't have a solution, but I have the same issue with my wife's Grand Cherokee. We've had the vehicle over a year and I can not get comfortable in it, either the driver or the passenger seat. To the point where I recommend the Focus every time we go some where. The seat bottom is absurdly short, and leaves me with no thigh support regardless of where I position the seat. I've tried everything, and the only thing I could come up with is avoidance. Thankfully, the seats aren't pain inducing, but they aren't comfy.

That's honestly one reason I went with the base ST. The seats, while not terribly supportive as far as bolstering, were large enough and provided great thigh support for me. It's interesting now to read long term test of STs and the same journos that were saying "get the Recaros, you're a fool if you don't!" now complain about living day to day with those seats, resorting to calling them a flaw.

Obviously getting rid of the A3 so quickly is most likely not an option. It seems the only viable solution is (hopefully) working with Audi on a sport seat swap and hoping that alleviates the problem.

You're actually the 2nd person I know to have the exact same complaint with the seats in a Grand Cherokee. The other guy is about 6'5"...

I agree on the FoST seats. I also got the base and they were very comfortable. Not a lot of bolstering for playing sporty car driver, but I never had a problem with them. I read the same long term reviews about people not like the Recaro's in the long run. Funny how that works sometimes.

You're right about trading the A3 in too quickly... it would be a massive loss on my end.

Shadowden wrote:Now I would like to know from both of you where the pain is? At the top of the knee cap?

I'd agree that a stock sport seat would be worth a looksee and a better option than an aftermarket racing bucket. Did you talk to your dealer? I'd try one out for an extended driving session and see if it is indeed the problem.

Yep, top of the knee cap.

I talked to an Audi USA rep who was going to talk to the dealer on my behalf. She said she would get back to me no later than Wednesday.

I'm pretty sure the seat bottom length is the majority of the problem, but there are a couple of issues:

-Shitty pedal position, discussed above.
-Incredibly touchy brake pedal that requires a lot of finesse to stop smoothly.
-Extremely wide center console that won't allow me to bow my right leg out to the right, like I do on cars with thinner consoles. Although the Focus also had a thicker center console and it didn't really bother me.

Well, I've been studying this problem a bit more and I believe the short seats are only partially to blame, but are definitely part of the equation. There's definitely more to the equation:

1) The gas is far from the brake, both vertically and laterally. This leads to me twisting my foot at a very weird/sharp angle when I'm applying the brake.
2) The center console is extremely wide and tall. I can't bow my right leg out while driving at all like I normally do. I can feel the extra pressure on my knee as a result. This accentuates the above problem.
3) The brake pedal is very difficult to modulate smoothly, so I spend a lot of time & finite muscle movement trying to stop the car at red lights & for traffic, placing more pressure on my knee. The dual clutch tranny apparently has a flaw in its armor- normal braking. The brakes are extremely grabby to begin with, but you can get used to it. But when you're braking, let's say you give it ~30% pedal and the car reacts according initially, giving you 30% stopping power.... then it down-shifts and the engine braking combined with the brakes makes the car want to screech to a halt, giving you around 60% stopping power, so you let off the brakes a bit.... then the engine braking effect lessens, and now the car is barely slowing at all, so you reapply ~30% pedal.... then the car down-shifts again and feels like screeching to a stop, ect..... This isn't really noticeable when intentionally braking heavily, but for normal driving in traffic, it requires more concentration to stop smoothly. I now understand why people say the DSG tranny can be clunky for daily driving, and it has nothing to do with acceleration.

On the seat front, I heard back from Audi USA- they told me to go pound sand. I honestly don't blame them, I bought the car as-is, it's not their fault. I couldn't have known this would be an issue and neither could they.

Still can't find anyone that will work on the seats due to the air-bag being built into the seat bottom.

The dealer also said no to helping me. I can order a sport seat from them, but the last tally they had said it'll be over $3000 by the time everything is said and done. Even then, they gave me the feeling that they really didn't want to touch it, or even order the parts. I checked with a few forum vendors to see if I could save a few bucks and was told I would need to consult a dealer....

I've already installed a pedal cover kit that changed the spacing slightly.... I think I'll try rigging up a cheap pedal spacer kit of my own, just to see if it'll help, but I have my doubts that it'll completely eliminate the problem due to the short seats and wide center console. But I'll give it a shot, and if it helps, I spend a bit of money on a more permanent solution.

I'm not going to spend $3000+ on a seat. I gave it a good amount of thought, and it just doesn't make sense to spend $3000 on a seat I couldn't resell for more than $1000 (if that, likely closer to $500), that might not even completely solve my issue. The way I figure it, that money would be better spent going towards a vehicle that doesn't cause me pain to begin with (worst case scenario).

For now, I'll try setting up my own pedal spacer idea and report back.

Ronin - Have you tried left foot braking? That might help alleviate the use of the right leg performing all those movements. It would also make you an even more badass driver too :P

Saul_Good wrote:Ronin - Have you tried left foot braking? That might help alleviate the use of the right leg performing all those movements. It would also make you an even more badass driver too :P

I actually tried it a few times, but after driving for ~16 years using my right foot for the brake, it just felt awkward.

I suppose I would have to give it some time to get used to it. I'll give it another shot and see how it goes. Can't hurt at this point!

I continue to squat, but for the most part the knee pain is gone. I actually dealt with it a bit today, but that was after 6hrs in the vehicle. That was in my avalanche. I'm short so long seats wouldn't help.
For me, I used rest, ice massage, massage, physical therapy, and dry needling to get through the pain. Sounds like same general area.

Shadowden wrote:I continue to squat, but for the most part the knee pain is gone. I actually dealt with it a bit today, but that was after 6hrs in the vehicle. That was in my avalanche. I'm short so long seats wouldn't help.
For me, I used rest, ice massage, massage, physical therapy, and dry needling to get through the pain. Sounds like same general area.

If it only came after 6 hours of driving, I wouldn't give it much of a thought. Mine starts flaring up after ~10 minutes of driving.... unfortunately, I generally drive 2.5 hours a day, mostly in traffic.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll try your methods above.

After spending a bit of time in pain and frustration tonight, I found myself thinking about the 5+ hour mountain drives (lots of fun brake & gas work) I've had in the wife's 2013 WRX and how I don't remember having a moment of discomfort/pain. So, I started investigating differences between them with a tape measure:

-Her seat bottoms only stick out about an extra 1/2", but since they're cloth (vs leather), when I sit in them, I actually sit deeper into them. The result is about an extra ~1" more thigh support.

-I measured the lateral gap between the gas and brake pedals. Her WRX's gap was just under 2".... The A3= just over 3". Over an additional 50% gap for the A3's pedals. The A3's brake pedal is also vertically higher- roughly 2.25" higher than the gas, vs only about 1.5" for her WRX. I knew I wasn't crazy. This explains why it feels so awkward to engage the pedals in the A3. Dear Audi/VW: thanks for giving into the idiots and lawyers rather than the majority of people that know how to not press both pedals at the same time.

-I then measured the overall width of the center consoles to get an idea of how much they were protruding into foot-wells, limiting my ability to bow my knee. Her WRX came in around 8.25", and the A3 came in around 10.5". The Audi's console is also physically taller, so my knee is always pressed against it's hard plastic (the only area in the whole damn interior that uses cheap, hard plastic is the only area my knee is pressed up against- ironic lol). Just to be fair, I thought "well, maybe the Audi is an overall wider car", which would make room for a wider center console. So, I looked it up: identical 70.7" for both vehicles.

Here's a shot of the A3's foot-well. Notice that there's really no straight shot to the gas pedal with the wide center console and also how far away the brake is:


Picture of a 2011-2014 WRX interior by comparison. Notice the straight shot to the gas pedal and how the center console doesn't get in the way:


I think I know why the Audi has such a wide console. I think they tried to move the transversely mounted motor back further a bit in the engine bay for better weight distribution. I'm sure it worked, as they handle phenomenally well. Unfortunately, since the A3/Golf/GTI sit so low to the ground, there's only one place for that great big transfer case: right underneath that silly-wide center console. Just speculation, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

With the way the A3's console tapers outward, I'm pretty sure a person with shorter legs wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem bowing their leg a bit. I have the seat back almost as far as it will go. It will go just a bit further, but the steering wheel is already fully telescoped- any further and I'm going to have a tough time keeping good control of the steering wheel and gas pedal. I've read a couple of journalist reviews that said the A3 has the most awkward driving position of all the MQB platform cars they've driven (Golf/GTI ect), and I now know what they're saying.

Well, lesson learned I suppose... too bad that it'll likely be an expensive and painful lesson. At this point, while I think better seats will surely help, I'm convinced that even with better seats, the angles still won't be right and the pain won't go away. I suppose I'll try to just mock up some pedal spacers and take Ibuprofen as needed..... making the brake pedal about an inch wider and the gas pedal about 3/4" taller might help, but there's not much to do about that damn center console getting in the way.

How does the gas pedal mount to the car? I assume it is drive by wire so no cable to worry about. Would it be possible to actually raise and move the pedal to the left?

RX-7 Chris wrote:How does the gas pedal mount to the car? I assume it is drive by wire so no cable to worry about. Would it be possible to actually raise and move the pedal to the left?

I don't think so. Here's a few photos:





^^^I only see one torx screw/bolt holding the throttle pedal assembly into what appears to be that much larger plastic molding. My assumption is that the pedal just snaps/clips into the larger plastic molding, and the torx screw acts as a retainer.

If this were a simple 2 bolt on the floor pedal assembly, I would have already moved it. They make dirt cheap kits for doing just that on my old Focus ST, that will move the pedal up, as well as laterally if you want:



^^^That would've been SO much simpler.... This will be my last German car. Overly complex for no good reason. Ridiculous.

On another note, I heard back from a company called Ultimate Pedals. They confirmed that they already have a template for my A3's pedals and can modify a set of custom pedals to my specification. I was thinking about ordering a gas pedal that is about 1/2" wider, so I could press it without having to be so close to the center console and making the brake 1/2" wider as well so the pedals would be closer together. I can then use spacers to raise the gas 3/4", so they're closer vertically; essentially giving them similar specs as the wife's WRX. These pedals would cost around $150.

I'm strongly considering ordering them at this point. Thoughts?

I had one of these in my TL. It allowed me to rest my right knee on the center console, but also pushed it out so I had that my knee was still somewhat upright vs my original leg position while resting it up against the console. It was soft too.

roninsoldier83 wrote:... I have the seat back almost as far as it will go. It will go just a bit further, but the steering wheel is already fully telescoped- any further and I'm going to have a tough time keeping good control of the steering wheel and gas pedal. ...

I think you got it backwards. I think you should move closer instead of further. If you have to bend your leg outward while it is extended, it will put more pressure on your knee. You will have less pressure (much easier) if your knee/leg is less extended. You can try it (feel it) while sitting in your normal office chair.