Considering an NC Miata

[roninsoldier83]

I've been mulling over a future weekend car to tinker with for a while now; ever since I sold my MSM. At first, I thought the debate would be S2000 vs E36 M3, as they both offer a substantial amount of performance for around my projected budget (~$10k or so). I got to thinking: the E36 M3 has a lot of practical uses (back seats, usable trunk, extra comfort), but I have a nice daily driver and I really don't need them. I also have an affinity for drop-top roadsters. The S2000 would likely be more fun and more potent as well.

I enjoyed the last S2000 I drove very much. However, the last time I drove an S2000, I had a few minor complaints:

-Numb steering.
-Snap oversteer without warning (I was driving an AP1).
-Low-end grunt was lacking (high RPM power was a blast!)

Other issues with the S2000:

-Tough to find in decent condition for around my budget price. Prices for them seem to be going up these days. This is a pro and a con.
-Hard to tell if the car might have been abused prior to purchase. A lot of people are very hard on these cars.
-Pricey to insure. Likely due to snap-oversteer related accidents and theft rates (people really like to steal S2000 seats and other goodies). I don't know that, I'm just speculating.
-Uncommon drivetrain (F20/F22) might lead to pricey replacements parts. Again, just speculating.

So this led me to think about alternative options. I've owned an NA and NB MSM, why not an NC? I worked at a Mazda dealership many years ago and the NC was my favorite car on their line-up at the time, even though it's been a while since I've driven one. I drove them all the time years ago, and remember them fondly. Until recently they've just been beyond my budget for a weekend car, or else I probably would have picked one up.

Pros for the NC:

-From everything I've read, the NC Miata has a similar chassis stiffness rate as the S2000, but is ~300 lbs lighter. Both are stiffer than NA/NB Miata by a good margin.
-It comes with brakes that will supposedly take a good amount of abuse.
-Aluminum engine mounted behind the front axle, like the S2000.
-Hydraulic steering gives good feedback.
-Short gearing and good mid-range make for a fun street car.
-Relatively easy to control at the limit.
-Bulging fender flares fit a lot of tire underneath them.
-If I ever get a schedule that permits track days, the NC comes with roll hoops that are legal to run at High Plains Raceway.
-The aftermarket is really growing for these cars and reasonably priced for the most part. There are a few supercharger kits available that might eventually interest me.
-The Ford Duratec 2.5L 4-cylinder is basically a direct bolt-in motor and they're dirt cheap. With NA bolt-ons and a tune, it looks like people can hit around the 200whp mark with the 2.5L. That would make for a quick ~2500 lbs naturally aspirated car that still had plenty of low-end torque. Keeping it NA and mostly OEM would likely spell good things for reliability under stress as well.
-Ecutek software is available for all model years, allowing you to keep your OEM ECU in place and keep the car relatively emissions legal.
-They respond to NA bolt-ons pretty well for a 2.0L NA 4 banger.
-According to USAA, insurance for the NC is cheaper than it was for my MSM and significantly cheaper than an S2000.
-More common than the S2000, so parts will likely be easier to source.
-Larger than previous Miata's- I remember fitting in the NC much easier than the NA/NB. I suppose I would have to compare one back to back with an S2000.
-Z-folding soft-top is very nice.
-Plenty of creature comforts for a [primarily] street driven car.
-They aren't tracked often, so they're generally less likely to be abused.
-Most of them will have low-ish miles and will likely run for a long time.
-The NC is pretty much the only car that competes with the S2000 in SCCA's STR class- they seem fairly evenly matched when lightly modded. Granted, I have no delusions about winning autoX championships, or even being able to regularly compete for that matter; but the potential for the car is appealing.

Cons for NC:

-No matter what you do to it, it's still a Miata!
-The OEM suspension is garbage. Way too much roll and understeer. This is easily solved, but adds to the cost of the car.
-Not as aesthetically pleasing as the S2000. Not as audibly pleasing either. Although I do like the OEM fender flares.
-No 9000rpm redline.
-Other cars are much faster for the money.
-It will take some cash to get it to hang with a S2000 in a straight line.
-Further safety mods like taller roll-bars are much tougher to fit on an NC than they are on the NA/NB due to Z-folding top.
-Not as “raw” as some other sporty cars for the money. At least not stock.

[roninsoldier83]

Overall, while I know there are drawbacks, I'm really liking the idea of the NC. I remember them being fun on the street and would make for a good weekend car. With simple suspension and drivetrain mods, I could have fun making noticeable improvements to it. If and when I eventually get a better schedule, it would also make for a fun momentum track or autoX car that I could grow with. I've been to a 2 week long performance driving course, but that was ~3 years ago and I'm sure I'm a bit rusty. A car that wouldn't be too intimidating (stupid powerful or hard to control) is very appealing to me. The fact that is has some serious room to grow is alluring as well.

I've given thoughts to other potential weekend cars as well outside of the S2000 and NC, but thus far, the NC and S2000 seem to be at the top of the list. Short list of other appealing cars:

-3rd Gen Toyota MR2 Spyder- MR cars are fun, but a nightmare to work on. Inferior suspension design vs the NC (struts vs double wishbone/multilink). No storage space to speak of (might have a tough time taking my gear to work!). 2ZZ swap (180hp in 2200 lbs car!) sounds very appealing, but a bit pricey. Best/most rearward weight distribution. Lightest car on the list. Cheaper than other cars on this list and likely more unique as well. Likely will have the smallest aftermarket.

-E36 BMW M3- Good weight distribution, great steering feel and smooth I6 motor. Good aftermarket support and surprisingly not too tough to work on. Heavy-ish car. Might be pricey to maintain. No drop-top- I know they made a convertible, but the only 'verts I'm interested in are roadsters that were designed as convertibles, not factory modified (floppy and heavy) coupes. Back seat could have its uses.

-Nissan 350Z- Good power/torque. Looks good IMO. Good high speed stability. Pricey consumables. Motor is expensive to mod. Heaviest car of the bunch- tough on brakes and tires. Slow steering. Again, no drop-top.

-Mazda RX-8- Handles well. Revs to 9000rpm. It's a unique looking and driving car IMO. However, I'm not sure if I'm up to the task of dealing with the quirks of the rotary- however charming they might be. Also, the NC is built on the same chassis, but is 500 lbs lighter, has hydraulic steering, a drop-top and is considerably more reliable. As such, the NC seems to make more sense to me.

[roninsoldier83]

I've purposely excluded all Porches and the FD RX-7. Not because I don't like them- in truth I love [most of] them! The cost of maintenance just bumps them off my list (irony- my daily is an Audi!). No real interest in muscle cars either.

I've also excluded all FWD and AWD vehicles from this list. RWD is just more fun and I already have an AWD daily. The idea of a GC Impreza 2.5RS swap sounds cool, but at the end of the day, I've had highly modded AWD cars and they weren't as fun as lower powered RWD cars I've owned.

There's also allegedly some unicorn C5 Corvettes w/6MT for around my budget out there... I'm sure they exist, but they're certainly not the norm and always seem to be trashed beyond compare if they're anywhere near that price with a 6MT. Plus, while a Vette might be interesting, maintaining one is generally an expensive proposition.


Based on reasoning stated above, the NC seems to be at the top of my list. Although I'm probably about ~12 months out, so I have plenty of time to shop and test drive.

Anything else I should be considering?

What thinks you?

[RX-7 Chris]

I voted yes although I know you would probably only keep it for 4 months, lol.

[Shadowden]

I'd say no. I'd vote for a 2006+ Honda S2000. Put Hondata in it. Done. Still have an 8k redline, but you can lower vtec engagement. Stock suspension is more than adequate and once you get used to it, you'll find oversteer isn't a problem. The later models tuned a lot of it out, but even with my model year 2000 it wasn't horrific. I put swift springs on to lower and re-balance the car (300.00 to make it less touchy). Now is the time to buy a roadster though. Or wait until next winter. They fetch a premium in the summer.

ETA: Low end grunt only matters if you are going straight line and at the start. Once you are into the car's sweet spot, it's all gravy.

[Saul_Good]

What is your goal for the car? If it’s a weekend toy/trackcar/autox car, I’d say S2000 all day. AP1 would be cheaper, and the snap oversteer IMHO is an overrated statement. How do I know? I’ve run Shadows AP1 and it was fine. In fact I prefer that looseness – you just have to be mindful of throttle application, but when done right, it’s like magic.
Some cheap fixes you can do to mitigate that oversteer or make it predictable/controllable would be 1/8 toe in at the rear and 0 toe up front and also keeping that staggered setup.

I like the also like the E36, but there might be some reliability/maintenance things to do which might run your budget tight.

MR2 Spyder is a good one too. More power to the wheels since it does not have to transfer power through a driveshaft into a diff, etc. You’re right about suspension, but I don’t think it’s a deal breaker since the car is like 500+lbs lighter. It runs in STR for autox and is a faster car than an NB and NC. Could be quicker on a track since it’s light. Then there’s the 2zz swap! Or even better and K-series motor!!
The rest I wouldn’t consider.

Saul_Good’s opinions only and to piggyback on Chris’s comment, should you be putting that much thought into it since you’ll only own it 4-5mos? :P

EDIT: Also forgot to add that the M3 has a MacStrut setup and does really well in the corners as well.
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3734/Project-E36-M3-Part-5--Suspension-V11--Sway-Bars-Control-Arms-and-Fender-Rolling.aspx

[Huzer]

Interesting you tossed the C5 in there. A C5 has always been on my list. What turned me off when I test drove one was that I had a '96 Yukon at the time, and the center stack (stereo, climate, etc) was identical to my Yukon! It was a bit weird to get out of a truck, into a sports car, and see basically the same dash staring at me.

That said, I'd still like to get one some day. When I was looking a couple of years ago, I'd find 6MT ones in the low teens, if I tried hard enough. I haven't seen any sub 10k, ones, though.

I like the looks of the NC (prefer the refreshed snout version) although I've never driven one. If it handles like the RX8, then I definitely like the handling!

My post-Miata short list goes: C5 or C6, Cayman S/911, BMW Clownshoe/M Roadster (Roadsters are significantly cheaper than the coupe). That list will probably change significantly over the course of 5 years. I'll have cleared massive, significant debt load by that time. If I can manage to hold on to the ST for 3 more years (hahahahahahahaha) that will be paid off, freeing up even more.

[Shadowden]

I was test driving 350z before finding the S2000 at the same price points and the low end feel of the 350Zs that I drove, with the exception of 1 (not sure why that one was so powerful off the line and others weren't), felt more sluggish than the S2000. It is probably due to their weight. In the end, I couldn't find a 350Z I really wanted in my price point and I really tried.

[roninsoldier83]

I voted yes although I know you would probably only keep it for 4 months, lol.

Haha! Chris, you know me well sir. The road to keeping a car is paved with good intentions! Years ago, I managed to keep a couple cars for 2.5+ years, but they only maintained my interest so long as I was modding them, lol. I guess the solution is to spend time modding whatever I get.

I'd say no. I'd vote for a 2006+ Honda S2000. Put Hondata in it. Done. Still have an 8k redline, but you can lower vtec engagement. Stock suspension is more than adequate and once you get used to it, you'll find oversteer isn't a problem. The later models tuned a lot of it out, but even with my model year 2000 it wasn't horrific. I put swift springs on to lower and re-balance the car (300.00 to make it less touchy). Now is the time to buy a roadster though. Or wait until next winter. They fetch a premium in the summer.

ETA: Low end grunt only matters if you are going straight line and at the start. Once you are into the car's sweet spot, it's all gravy.

Not bad advice, I'm sure. I've read about all the updates Honda did to the AP2's and they sound appealing. Unfortunately, all the reflashable 2006+ cars seem to be trading for $18k+, which is pretty far outside of my budget. It's tough to find a stock, high mileage AP1 within my budget... That was another thing the NC had going for it- I could buy a newer, cleaner, lower mileage example for the same price as an AP1 S2000.

[roninsoldier83]

What is your goal for the car? If it’s a weekend toy/trackcar/autox car, I’d say S2000 all day. AP1 would be cheaper, and the snap oversteer IMHO is an overrated statement. How do I know? I’ve run Shadows AP1 and it was fine. In fact I prefer that looseness – you just have to be mindful of throttle application, but when done right, it’s like magic.
Some cheap fixes you can do to mitigate that oversteer or make it predictable/controllable would be 1/8 toe in at the rear and 0 toe up front and also keeping that staggered setup.

I like the also like the E36, but there might be some reliability/maintenance things to do which might run your budget tight.

MR2 Spyder is a good one too. More power to the wheels since it does not have to transfer power through a driveshaft into a diff, etc. You’re right about suspension, but I don’t think it’s a deal breaker since the car is like 500+lbs lighter. It runs in STR for autox and is a faster car than an NB and NC. Could be quicker on a track since it’s light. Then there’s the 2zz swap! Or even better and K-series motor!!
The rest I wouldn’t consider.

Saul_Good’s opinions only and to piggyback on Chris’s comment, should you be putting that much thought into it since you’ll only own it 4-5mos? :P

EDIT: Also forgot to add that the M3 has a MacStrut setup and does really well in the corners as well.
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3734/Project-E36-M3-Part-5--Suspension-V11--Sway-Bars-Control-Arms-and-Fender-Rolling.aspx

Good points. And yes, the car would be a weekend car that would occasionally see autoX/track duty when my schedule improves. In the meantime, I envision something like Tim is doing- modding the car slowly and keeping myself occupied. I'm sure a bit of work to an AP1 suspension could tame oversteer a bit, or if nothing else, I could just get used to it and learn to control it. It was only something that shocked me on a spirited test drive, as I wasn't expecting it. It reminded me of my old SW20 MR2 turbo to be honest.

I do like the idea of a swapped MR2 Spyder and I know it competes in STR, but at a national level, it's not faster than the NC. Its certainly faster than the NB, not the NC is a quicker car.

SCCA Nationals results 2014:
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2014%20Tire%20Rack%20SCCA%20Solo%20Nats%20Results%20.pdf

2013:
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2013%20Solo%20Results%20FINAL1.pdf

2012:
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2012%20Solo%20Nationals%20Final%20Results.pdf

Looks like the S2000 is pretty dominant in STR for the most part. In 2014, all the top spots were S2000, but the next slew of fastest cars were NC Miata's. The only MR2 Spyders running were slower than the faster NC's.

Looks like 2013 had a freak 350Z take the cake... followed by a few S2000's... then an NC Miata... then an MR2 Spyder.

In 2012, of the top 6 spots, 3 of them were NC Miata's, the other 3 were S2000's. Looks like the fastest MR2 Spyder was in the 12th spot.

Just looking at the raw numbers, I would saw S2000>NC>MR2 Spyder>NB. I really do like the MR2, and I think a 2ZZ swap would be a riot to drive, although they're only about ~300 lbs lighter than an NC and I also think an NC with a relatively simple 2.5L swap would be a lot of fun.

Dyno of an NC with a 2.5L swap- lowest line is stock. Middle line is NC with full exhaust. Top line is NC with 2.5 swap + intake/exhaust/tune:



^^^With a 2.5 swap & bolt-ons, at ~200whp, an NC should pull harder than a stock S2000, given its lower curb weight. Looks like a fun curve, with lots of low-end torque. A brand new 2.5L can be had for around ~$2500, whereas a used 2.5L can be found for around $1000. It really is a direct swap- plugs right in. For $2500 (assuming you did the swap yourself), you could be starting with a brand new block and plenty of power to be interesting... if you get bored, S/C kits start around $3000 and also bolt right onto the 2.5L due to it being essentially the same motor. Looks interesting.

I'm with you, I also like the E36 M3, but you're right, there are some reliability/maintenance concerns that go along with it. Again, one of the more appealing things about the NC is that for similar money, I could get a car that is 10 years newer and in far better shape. Although it would never have a sweet inline-6...

[Saul_Good]

Do this, then sell it to me for a bargain after you get bored of it.
http://youtu.be/qe-u7eljhO8

[roninsoldier83]

Interesting you tossed the C5 in there. A C5 has always been on my list. What turned me off when I test drove one was that I had a '96 Yukon at the time, and the center stack (stereo, climate, etc) was identical to my Yukon! It was a bit weird to get out of a truck, into a sports car, and see basically the same dash staring at me.

That said, I'd still like to get one some day. When I was looking a couple of years ago, I'd find 6MT ones in the low teens, if I tried hard enough. I haven't seen any sub 10k, ones, though.

I like the looks of the NC (prefer the refreshed snout version) although I've never driven one. If it handles like the RX8, then I definitely like the handling!

My post-Miata short list goes: C5 or C6, Cayman S/911, BMW Clownshoe/M Roadster (Roadsters are significantly cheaper than the coupe). That list will probably change significantly over the course of 5 years. I'll have cleared massive, significant debt load by that time. If I can manage to hold on to the ST for 3 more years (hahahahahahahaha) that will be paid off, freeing up even more.

I would also love a C6, but they're a very distant pipe dream! I'm not crazy about the C5, but I think it would be interesting if nothing else.

The NC doesn't handle as well as the RX-8 in stock form IMO. It has a softer suspension. It's actually pretty common for people to use OEM RX-8 parts (specifically sway bars) on their NC's. It's the same chassis though, just 500 lbs lighter. I imagine the RX-8 has higher structural rigidity due to having a fixed roof, but the NC has been steering feel (hydraulic vs electric) and a hefty weight savings to help make up for it. Both have near 50/50 weight distributions.

I hear you on paying off debt! Since selling my MSM, the only debt I'm currently carrying is my mortgage & my Audi's car loan.... but I want to rebuild my emergency fund before I get another weekend/project car (I'll be paying cash). Hence being ~12 months out or so.

I was test driving 350z before finding the S2000 at the same price points and the low end feel of the 350Zs that I drove, with the exception of 1 (not sure why that one was so powerful off the line and others weren't), felt more sluggish than the S2000. It is probably due to their weight. In the end, I couldn't find a 350Z I really wanted in my price point and I really tried.

I actually owned a 350Z years ago... I bought it when I was still in the Army, stationed down at Ft Hood, TX. As a single guy, living in the barracks in TX, it was fine. At sea level, it was a very fun car! When I moved up here, well, the power loss was pretty drastic and it didn't work out too well as a daily driver in the winter. I think I sold it about 8-9 years ago. These days, my next project car would not be serving daily driver duty...

I remember having a good amount of fun in that car, but I'm not sure if it was as fun as some of the lighter weight cars I've owned... I remember spending around $2000 or so on bolt-ons and not feeling much of a difference power wise. I also remember prices for parts being a bit expensive... It also felt like a heavier more substantial car, but the interior started falling apart in short order- typical Nissan.

It fits the bill of what I'm looking for per se- not horribly heavy, good weight distribution, RWD, manual transmission, decent power/torque, sporty, ect; but it's not on the top of my list. The motor/tranny are pretty solid (other than oil consumption issues some of them have), but it would be a pricey car to run, as consumables aren't that cheap.

[roninsoldier83]

Do this, then sell it to me for a bargain after you get bored of it.
http://youtu.be/qe-u7eljhO8

LOL, duly noted.

The MR2 with a K20 swap would be a fun car, but it's a pretty pricey swap. The 2ZZ is more direct and considerably cheaper, not to mention being an OEM setup. If I picked up an MR2, the 2ZZ would be the only swap I would consider.... even though I'm sure it would be considerably more laborious than stuffing a 2.5L into an NC.

[RX-7 Chris]

I've driven a couple of C5's and I can't stand them. They have power, etc but they are so plasticy. It is like driving a Cavalier with a V8.

[Huzer]

I've driven a couple of C5's and I can't stand them. They have power, etc but they are so plasticy. It is like driving a Cavalier with a V8.

Plastic-y describes about every GM product through at least 2005. A C5 at around 10k is a good performance deal.