Comparison: My '04 MSM vs AP1 '03 S2000

[roninsoldier83]

Today I took a 2003 Honda S2000 for a spin! For reference the car had extremely low miles- only 18k! The test drive was about 45 minutes long and of course, I drove it back to back with my '04 Mazdaspeed Miata that has about 80k miles on it.

Disclaimers:

-The S2000 is an AP1, so it has the higher revving 2.0L motor (vs later 2.2L motor), as well as a host of other differences that Honda changed for the AP2's.
-The S2000 also has much lower mileage, so I imagine the bushings, seals, ect, are likely in better shape.
-Also, since we're at high elevation here in the Denver area (5200 ft), generally turbocharged cars hold a slight advantage due to their lower power losses at altitude; I don't know how much that holds true with the MSM's low factory boost pressure.
-My MSM is stock, other than having a foamectomy. The S2000 also appeared to be bone stock. So this should be a direct apples-to-apples comparison.
-I will try to keep as much of most own biases out of this as possible.

Here's my personal breakdown of the two:

-Engines & power to weight ratios: Even at this elevation, I felt like the S2000 was faster in a straight line. Especially above 6000rpm. While performing relatively quick shifts at redline (after letting the car fully warm up), the S2000 felt like it wanted to kick its rear end out. This is something that my MSM doesn't seem readily wanting to do. It also just felt like it pulled harder above 50+mph. Not a massive difference, but enough to notice. However, in the mid-range department, I didn't feel like the S2000 held a candle to the MSM. This was to be expected.

If I were a track junkie, I think I would prefer the S2000's revvy 2.0L. However, as a semi-daily driven car, I much prefer the MSM's mid-range torque. Before anyone says it, yes, I know the MSM picks up huge power gains with very simple & inexpensive bolt-ons and with simple intake/exhaust/tune, it would likely pull a good bit harder than the S2000; but this isn't a stock vs modded, or lightly modded vs lightly modded comparison. This is stock vs stock only. YMMV. However, I must note that when it comes to the sound department, the S2000 at full throttle is one of the best sounding 4-cylinders on the planet!

-Chassis & suspension: Both control their body motions very well and have minimal roll while maintaining a perfectly livable ride. Both seem fairly planted while pushing them a bit; although admittedly, I've pushed the MSM much harder than I got to push the S2000. One thing that really stuck out about them: the S2000 seemed to have a much stiffer chassis, that really seemed to soak up more bumps and road imperfections. By comparison, the MSM quivers, shakes and bounces over things like expansion joints, whereas the S2000 didn't seem bothered in the least. Advantage- S2000.

-Handling: I didn't get to push the S2000 to 10/10ths, but I did push it enough through tight bends to try and get a decent feel for it.... one thing I noticed on the very first spirited corner I took in the S2000: the rear end really likes to step out! It steps out much faster than the MSM's and is more sudden and disconcerting in the process. I've gotten the MSM's tail to come out several times, but it's usually fairly controlled and easy to get back in line. The S2000's was more shocking by comparison. I know that between the two, on paper, the S2000 is the car that should have more overall grip, and generally seems to be the faster lapper of the two. However, IMO, you would need a better driver [than myself] to get everything out of the S2000 vs the MSM. If I'm being honest with myself, the MSM seems a bit more confidence inspiring, and I know my own limitations; without lots of seat time, I don't think I would be very comfortable trying to push the S2000 to 10/10ths. I've heard the AP2's weren't as tail happy, so again, YMMV. For spirited driving on a mountain road, I would prefer the MSM, due to its more forgiving nature. Just my $.02

-Brake feedback, control and pedal spacing seemed very similar. It would take a more talented driver than myself (and likely some track time) to really find the differences here, as they are very comparable and both of them are very good to an average driver like myself.

-Steering: MSM wins this category without me even having to think about it. Modern electric steering racks are getting very good (I've owned a few of them and can easily attest to that); but it is obvious that the S2000 has a much earlier electric steering rack system. The MSM has loads of steering feedback- its easy to feel when the front end starts to lose grip. The S2000 is very numb and twitchy by comparison. I could be wrong, but it felt like the S2000's steering was a bit quicker, which I would prefer for quick transitions. However, less feedback is no bueno. I also prefer the overall weight of the MSM's wheel, even on-center.

-Looks: This is a very subjective category... and I personally think the MSM is one of the best looking Miata's ever made.... but, with that said, I prefer the more angular lines of the S2000. The MSM isn't an ugly car, but the S2000 has more masculine/less effeminate lines which appeal to me. Don't get me wrong, neither of them scream "muscle car", but the S2000 seems like it would probably have less of a "girl's car" stigma behind it based solely on aesthetics. I personally don't care what others think (hence the Miata!), but I would still give the nod to the S2000.

-Drivetrain: I prefer the clutch setup on the MSM, as it's lower to the ground and easier to manipulate... but the shifter is hands down better in the S2000! The S2000 has easily one of the smoothest gearboxes I've ever driven. It would be tough to miss a gear IMO. By comparison, the MSM's 6-speed is very notchy and vague. The MSM doesn't like to be shifted quickly and is a royal pain to get into reverse sometimes. I would say the shifter is easily one of the low points of the MSM.

-Interior space & comfort: If I had to choose one to be "ideal", I would say the S2000. For reference I'm 6'2" 210 lbs (33" waist, 34" inseam). The S2000 has more leg and shoulder room. It also felt like it would have more headroom with the top up, even though my MSM has a foamectomy (if only slightly). Everything is also very driver-centric in the S2000, and very easy to reach. However, the steering wheel on the MSM sticks out a little further, which I prefer. The top of the windshield in both of them obstructs my vision a bit at certain stop lights, but the S2000 might have a very slight edge in this regard. The S2000's seats have considerably more bolstering and are more comfortable IMO. Obviously, people with a bigger waist-line might prefer the Miata's less-bolstered seats, which is to be expected. But other than that aspect, the S2000 seems larger and more "tall guy friendly" in almost every way.

-Interior fit and finish: Both are actually pretty good. The MSM holds up very well (other than the heat/cooling vents that don't like to stay put!). However, I would say the S2000 feels like most of the buttons/controls, ect are a slight notch higher. I prefer the MSM's steering wheel & traditional tachometer, but I liked almost everything else better on the S2000.

-Convertible tops: The S2000's is convenient & intelligent. I could see it being a pretty nice feature. Honestly have no problems with the MSM's top- it generally takes me all of about ~3 seconds or less to drop or put up. It's not bad at all. Both are just fine for different reasons in my book. The S2000's is technically easier (it's automated) and looks like it probably stows away a bit better. But on the MSM, it's extremely simple and seems like it would be just one less thing to break. Either works just fine.

-Trunk space: Let's be honest, they both have pathetically small trunks.... they're roadsters that aren't meant to be practical. However, you never know when you might need to throw a few things in the boot. I think they both are likely rated at having a similar amount of trunk space, but just looking at them, the MSM's trunk seems a bit more unable. It could just be an illusion, but that weird bucket shaped trunk in the S2000 doesn't seem like it would be very storage friendly.

-"Fun factor": This would be a tough one. Just like stated above, I think that the S2000 would be more fun on an open road or track.... but, as a daily driver or weekend car, the MSM is more fun to drive for two reasons: more mid-range torque and steering feedback. It's chassis isn't as composed as the S2000's (minus the readily available snap-oversteer), but it certainly isn't any less fun to drive! Honestly, I say the MSM is slightly more fun to drive IMO, but we're really splitting hairs here... Really, with the tops down on a nice day, they are both a riot to drive and I wouldn't kick either out of my garage!

-Bang for Buck: This is another tough one.... on one hand, I bought my MSM with 78k miles on the clock for $6900. Clean Carfax, no accidents, well taken care of and bone stock. But I have to be honest with myself: I really did get a great deal on this car, probably better than the average MSM transaction these days. However, S2000's of a similar year and mileage seem to be trading around the ~$13k-$14k range in this area. As such, they're roughly double the cost of my MSM. At that price point, while I think that the S2000 is certainly worth more than the MSM, I don't think its worth double what I paid for my MSM.... If the prices were $10k for an MSM of similar year/mileage/condition as an AP1 S2000 that was going for $13k, I would say that S2000 would likely be the better deal. However, with me picking up my MSM for $6900, I'm going to have to give the MSM the nod here, as it certainly is a lot of car for the money these days. That's just my $.02


Either way, both are great cars! I just figured I would share my driving experiences with anyone who was interested. Happy motoring!

Cheers,

Brandon

[RX-7 Chris]

Now you need to test drive a boxster.

[roninsoldier83]

Now you need to test drive a boxster.

Meh... I would actually own an S2000. I would consider a Boxster S, but repair and normal maintenance bills on the Boxster scare me away.

One of these weeks I might try to take one for a spin just for kicks, but I think the MSM vs S2000 comparison is probably a bit more apples-to-apples.

EDIT: Actually, I think for a more direct comparison, I should probably look into driving another early NC Miata since they're getting so cheap these days. Although the last time I drove an NC Miata I remember thinking: "this suspension setup is absolute garbage"- and that was with the OEM LSD & sport package (Bilstein shocks ect). I remember excessive body roll and the inability to get the rear end out, even with T/C switched off. That'll likely be my next fun time test drive.

[Saul_Good]

Nice review. I've driven AP1 and AP2s. I'd take an S2K either generation over a Miata. My decision to buy a Miata was more economical. I like that it takes 15in wheels which mean cheaper tires, hell everything is cheaper on the Miata.

On track the S2000 is WAAAY faster than a Miata even the MSM. The gearing gives it amazing acceleration despite its high redline. It hits 9k/8k (depending if AP1/2) about as quick as our cars hit 7k, maybe quicker.

I still love my Miata tho.

[roninsoldier83]

Nice review. I've driven AP1 and AP2s. I'd take an S2K either generation over a Miata. My decision to buy a Miata was more economical. I like that it takes 15in wheels which mean cheaper tires, hell everything is cheaper on the Miata.

On track the S2000 is WAAAY faster than a Miata even the MSM. The gearing gives it amazing acceleration despite its high redline. It hits 9k/8k (depending if AP1/2) about as quick as our cars hit 7k, maybe quicker.

I still love my Miata tho.

It's funny, as I also bought my MSM over an S2000 for the same reason you bought your 10AE- more economical. Although in my case, it was a matter of purchase price- $6900 vs $13,000-$14,000. If both were the same price, there's a good chance there might be an S2000 in my stable.

I'm not shocked that the S2000 is faster on a track. All the major magazines reported the same thing back in the day. It's also rated at having an extra ~62hp over the MSM, so that helps a good bit! Even though the MSM is a bit lighter (approx 2500 lbs vs roughly 2800 lbs for the S2000). I think the last time C&D ran them against each other the S2000 ran a 14.0@100mph vs the MSM's 15.2@91mph.... a 9mph difference in trap speed is pretty telling- the S2000 should easily pull away at higher speeds. IIRC, C&D reported a regular NB Miata running a 16.1@84mph, so there's no doubt there should be a huge gap in the straight aways for the S2000 vs any [stock] NB Miata.

I also agree that the S2000's gearing is likely better for the track.... the MSM's gearing is actually too short IMO. It has a lower redline than the normal NB Miata's (6500rpm vs 7000), yet is has an even shorter (numerically higher) final drive ratio (4.10 gears vs 3.91 for regular 6MT NB's), while maintaining the same individual gear ratios. Due to that, the MSM's 2nd gear redlines at ~48mph, 3rd- 67mph.... It leads to a lot of shifting. I've hit the rev limiter a few times due to the MSM's motor wrapping out so quickly from 4000-6500rpm combined with the short ratios. Which is part of the reason why a lot of the MSM guys swap over to 3.636 gears when they start putting down more power. With full bolt-ons (intake, exhaust, IC, injectors & a tune), MSM's generally pickup about 60-80whp or so and people report having a lot of trouble putting it down on the uber-short stock gearing. Dyno of FM's full bolt-on vs stock MSM: http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_runs/MSM_enchilada_stock_turbo.pdf

Although, the short stock gearing and good mid-range punch make it very nice to drive on the street and very forgiving. The MSM really is a great little weekend/street car, whereas I feel the S2000 is likely the better track car out of the box.

[Saul_Good]

Yups. I bought my Miata for same reason $6k with everything vs $14k for stock. Also, being that I HAD to have a hardtop on either, Miata hardtop is $6-900 vs $2-3000 for a Stook hardtop (assuming you could find one as easily as a Miata HT, which is also still kinda difficult).

If you got time, you should stop by HPR this weekend.

[roninsoldier83]

What time this weekend? I work graveyards every weekend (10pm-8am), but I'm hoping I can get a better shift next year so I can actually get out there sometime. I guess we'll see when shift bids come around in November....

[RX-7 Chris]

Meh... I would actually own an S2000. I would consider a Boxster S, but repair and normal maintenance bills on the Boxster scare me away.

My parents has a Boxster that they traded for a Boxster S 550 special edition. They test drove the AP1 before they decided on the Boxster because they didn't like the power band of the AP1.

The S 550 was a hole different animal. "Rated at 264 horsepower (SAE), the 3.2-liter flat-six cylinder power plant propels the car from 0 to 62 mph (100 km/h) in 5.7 seconds, and to a top track speed of 165 mph (266 km/h). Sportier suspension settings, 5 mm-wide wheel spacers on all four wheels, and standard 18-inch Carrera wheels improve handling, while a 15 percent shorter shift travel in the standard six-speed manual transmission provides quicker gear shifting." It did cost them about $65k at the time. It was an incredibly quick car and it cornered like mad. http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=196

I agree about the maintenance. Oil changed are easy because of a remote filter and filler. Anything beyond that and it is a nightmare. You basically need a lift if you plan to do any work yourself. We decided once to see what the motor looked like and it took almost a half hour to pull all the panels to see it. There is an access panel under the convertible top.

[Shadowden]

Since I daily an S2000 (kind of), I'm a bit biased towards it. Honda did a good job of getting a lot out of the engine, especially at higher RPM, but they left quite a bit to the enthusiast to grab in the middle. I swapped in an AP2 transmission, which gives me a little lower gearing in the first 4 gears, then actually gets taller in 5 and 6. The breathing system (Intake, header exhaust) on the S2K can actually make a pretty good difference too. Then, for the real deal, lower vtec engagement and supposedly its impossible to not smile anymore.

As far as oversteer, you just need to be in one that you feel comfortable getting loose with. It is actually rather predictable and easy to bring back.

I only autocrossed in a miata for a few runs and I thought it was a kick in the pants. Outside of bottom dollar price of a miata, the S2K really is that much bette. I got my 2000 S2K with 24k miles for $14K.

[Huzer]

Interesting comparison. Other than the drop top aspect of both, I wouldn't have really thought to compare a Miata and S2K. I'd say it's natural dance partner would have been the RX8.

With the price difference between either a standard Miata, or MSM, and an S2000, I'd most likely go Miata every time. RX8 vs S2000, most likely I'd go S2000.

[RX-7 Chris]

I would also go with an S2000 over an RX-8 but I would add a hard top to it because I'm not a big fan of convertibles.

[roninsoldier83]

Since I daily an S2000 (kind of), I'm a bit biased towards it. Honda did a good job of getting a lot out of the engine, especially at higher RPM, but they left quite a bit to the enthusiast to grab in the middle. I swapped in an AP2 transmission, which gives me a little lower gearing in the first 4 gears, then actually gets taller in 5 and 6. The breathing system (Intake, header exhaust) on the S2K can actually make a pretty good difference too. Then, for the real deal, lower vtec engagement and supposedly its impossible to not smile anymore.

As far as oversteer, you just need to be in one that you feel comfortable getting loose with. It is actually rather predictable and easy to bring back.

I only autocrossed in a miata for a few runs and I thought it was a kick in the pants. Outside of bottom dollar price of a miata, the S2K really is that much bette. I got my 2000 S2K with 24k miles for $14K.

Yeah, the snap oversteer that occurred so quickly was fairly disconcerting as I wasn't expecting it and the car felt foreign by comparison. Like I mentioned, the MSM will kick its tail out, but not that easily, and I generally know its happening before it happens, so its easier to adjust/control.

For an S2000 with 24k miles, that's a phenomenal deal! That's a lot of car for the mileage and money. Good find to say the least!

Interesting comparison. Other than the drop top aspect of both, I wouldn't have really thought to compare a Miata and S2K. I'd say it's natural dance partner would have been the RX8.

With the price difference between either a standard Miata, or MSM, and an S2000, I'd most likely go Miata every time. RX8 vs S2000, most likely I'd go S2000.

I would agree with you on price point. Even though RX-8 values have tanked in recent years- they seem to be significantly cheaper than S2000's from what I've seen.

Outside of price, I felt like the Miata and the S2000 are two of the most comparable cars on the road. Mostly because they're two of the only relatively affordable modern(ish) 2-seat, front engine, RWD, purpose designed, 50/50 weight distribution, light weight roadsters on the road. In those terms, there's really not much else out there. In my mind, the closest cars to the Miata are the S2000 and the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky as they pretty much check all of the same boxes. Notable mentions:

-Porsche Boxster- it's mid-engine, so not as "directly comparable" IMO. It also has a couple of extra cylinders on the S2000/Miata/GM twins.
-Toyota MR2 Spyder- it's mid-engine, same as above.
-350Z/370Z Convertible- it was designed as a coupe and dropping the top adds a ton of weight and drops handling drastically. Nowhere near as light or "fun to drive". It also has 2 more cylinders.
-RX-8 - fun car, but 4-door, 4-seat, rotary powered and fixed roof.
-Audi TT convertible: It's FWD based (AWD available) and basically a rebadged VW Golf. I could go on and on, but I think that says enough.

I'm sure there are plenty of others, but I really do think the most apples-to-apples comparison for the Miata is the S2000 and the GM twins.

With that said, I've always felt that Honda designed the S2000 based on the success of the Miata. I also feel as though they thought through a lot of common complaints about the Miata, as well as its strengths and adjusted accordingly. Examples:

-Complaints from taller drivers not fitting well: "let's make the car slightly larger and more accommodating".
-Complaints about a lack of power: "140hp? Pshhhh! Let's do 240hp!"
-Complaints about lack of chassis stiffness: "Let's design an X-frame chassis!"
-People love the Miata's simplicity: "Let's keep the interior simple."
-People love the Miata's light weight: "Let's keep it as low weight as we can while still adding all the goodies people are asking for."
-People love the Miata's affordability: While they couldn't get that much car for Miata money, I do feel as though the S2000 was pretty affordable for what it was.

And I'm with you, while I love the RX-8, if I had to choose, I would take the S2000 in a heartbeat. It's one of the few cars I would consider getting rid of my MSM for (assuming I had an extra ~$7k laying around).

[roninsoldier83]

I would also go with an S2000 over an RX-8 but I would add a hard top to it because I'm not a big fan of convertibles.

This is going to sound hypocritical, but the only convertibles I like are purpose built roadsters that were designed to be 2-seat convertibles from the start. Cars that were designed as coupes with a chopped roof never appealed to me. I.e. Mustangs, Camaros, Nissan Z's, ect. Coupes-turned-convertible always seems to add a ton of weight and ended up with a very "floppy" chassis and poor driving dynamics. Just my $.02

[RX-7 Chris]

I agree with that. I drove a friend of mine's '95 mustang GT. I couldn't stand the car. It did drive like someone cut the roof off and added a bunch of steel to the underside so the car wouldn't fold in half.

The S2000 was styled after the the older S cars (S500, S600, and S800). They definitely brought it back because of the success of the Miata. I really like the S800.

[millertime]

The s2000 is one of the few cars I would consider selling the FD for, and by far the cheapest of them. I really like the car and I just think that the extra money is well worth it over a miata. I dailied a miata for 3 years and while it was fun, I feel like the s2000 is worth every penny extra and then some.