Going turbo, scared of emissions (IM240)

IAlienzI · Postby **IAlienzI** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

So I've decided I'm finally taking my measly 2007 2.0L Sedan to the next level.
I plan to run 5psi of boost using a MazdaSpeed 3 turbo and a custom kit.

My problem: How do emissions work with turbo vehicles? Specifically ones that didn't come with turbos. I read all about the Colorado Emissions test (IM240) and it seems pretty strict. I also read a lot of people having trouble passing emissions after putting a turbo. Ideally I would like to have the car be street legal and ready to pass an IM240 at any time.

My question: Would I need to modify anything to pass the test? Provided it is tuned good, what are my options to get it to pass corectly? As of right now the car has both cats but the first cat (exhaust manifold) will get removed once the kit is installed.
Also, worst case scenario I only have my second cat and it's a high-flow magnaflow. Would tuning the car for no boost get it to pass?

kingtut · Postby **kingtut** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

I'm sure you'll get some good advice from knowledgeable people. That said, here's my .02

The negatives will outnumber the positives. Is the car paid off? How much is the turbo kit? If it were me, I would save your money...

EDIT: Ask mr. orange about it: http://www.coloradomazdaclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8440

Justin · Postby **Justin** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

I'm not convinced it'd be worth it. For the $$, I bet you could be close to getting into a MS3 if you sold your current car.

IAlienzI · Postby **IAlienzI** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

The kit is already shipping.

It is actually OrangeVirus' old kit and he is also installing it on my car. He doesn't have emissions though.

Justin · Postby **Justin** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

The biggest issue I see is the lack of the first catalytic converter. That alone will disqualify you, as all the cats must be in place and in the factory location. It'll also make you likely also make you throw codes. Air Care Colorado will run a scan via your OBDII port to check for trouble codes.

Brigdh · Postby **Brigdh** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

Justin wrote:The biggest issue I see is the lack of the first catalytic converter. That alone will disqualify you, as all the cats must be in place and in the factory location.

Pretty sure this is bullshit. One of my RX-7s is missing two of the three cats (only has the "main" one), and the cat that it does have is an aftermarket one that is something like 6 or 7 inches back of the stock location, and yet I've never had an issue with that car.

There is no standard on how many cats a car is required to have or where, and you think the emissions techs know all of that specific information off of the top of their head?

Justin wrote:It'll also make you likely also make you throw codes. Air Care Colorado will run a scan via your OBDII port to check for trouble codes.

I doubt it'll throw a code if you are missing one of the early cats. The early cats are almost universally meant to keep cold start emissions low, IE they only work until the car gets warm, then they do just about nothing (they get too hot to work). Since you shouldn't be taking a non-warmed up car to get emissions, this shouldn't be a problem.

If it does throw a code, then you are in a grey area. Some codes might fail you. I don't know the details of what specific codes could fail, but I know a CEL is not an automatic failure.

Chances are, you can wire open the wastegate so that the turbo is not able to build much or any boost, and still pass.

_AlexTM · Postby **_AlexTM** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

Props to you, although as many of us MZ3 owners have realized its more worth it to just buy an MS3. Ill be anxious to see it done though

chickenwafer · Postby **chickenwafer** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

Hurdles:

Passing the sniffer test: The first cat will have little bearing on this, as like others said, it's mostly cold start and the main cat does most work. But, the tune must be pretty good with consistent fueling to pass. This could take a while to nail down, especially depending on what EMS you're using. You also can't have any CELs (some EMS' block them).

Visual Inspection: This can really depend on the tech you have. Some will pop the hood and look for the emission equipment only and not even glance at anything else, while others who act they're emissions cops will eyeball the turbo and associating charge piping/equipment and start to get questioning.

I doubt the kit is CARB or 49 State legal, but you could try telling the tech it's just a turbo off the Mazdaspeed3 and it's all stock parts...who knows. Plus, Colorado isn't too strict on aftermarket parts, as long as the required emissions parts are installed (air pump, egr, cat) and the car passes the sniffer.

In the end, yes, you can pass emissions with a turbo. The biggest part will be a functional air pump, good cat, and a really good tune.

kingtut · Postby **kingtut** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:14

Regarding emission's "techs": In my experience, they're all moronic dipsh*t's- who are incapable of keeping the car within the test's limits; let alone being competent enough to look/find anything questionable.

If you do proceed, please keep us posted. I'd be interested in seeing your progress and what your findings are with emissions.

IAlienzI · Postby **IAlienzI** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:14

I have decided on having 2 cats for this, similar to a speed3.

Both will be ceramic 3-way high-flow cats from Magnaflow.
The first will be in the downpipe, similar to how the speed3 has it and the second one will be the traditional one in the exhaust. That being said, with a good tune it should pass.

I'll likely have to also find a place in Colorado to test emission gases (not emissions test) so that I can adjust my tune. Does anyone know a shop or place around that can do this?

Justin · Postby **Justin** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:14

Brigdh wrote:Pretty sure this is bullshit. One of my RX-7s is missing two of the three cats (only has the "main" one), and the cat that it does have is an aftermarket one that is something like 6 or 7 inches back of the stock location, and yet I've never had an issue with that car.

There is no standard on how many cats a car is required to have or where, and you think the emissions techs know all of that specific information off of the top of their head?

Sorry, not bullshit. You're required to have all factory emissions stuff in the factory location. I agree that it's unlikely that a tech will know the difference, but an aftermarket turbo kit may gain additional scrutiny. Techs can require that the car be taken to a State Emissions Tech Center to be more closely examined, and I'll be that those guys have a better idea of what should and shouldn't be there. Not saying it will happen, just advising that things be kept as close to stock looking as possible to minimize the risk, since one of the OP's goals is to remain emissions compliant. See #3

http://aircarecolorado.com/about-the-test/

You're right about the CEL, however I've been told by a tech that some codes can get sent for inspection. May have been a moron, maybe not.

Alienz, a good pro tune will go a very, very long way to helping you pass emissions. A car that is modified but has good numbers will be less likely to cause hassles. I'd be tempted to put the cats as close to the stock locations for your car as possible, and then add more parts if there are issues. I can't speak to the MZ3, but the MS3 can throw codes if it detects that emissions gasses are out of spec as compared to the factory, usually related to running an uncatted downpipe. I'd touch base with one of the competent tuners about this, as they may have more hands-on experience. Names I've heard are Harvey @ Boost Creep and SCR in Loveland.

Website · Postby **Shadowden** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:14

I passed emissions in my S2000 with a IAT CEL.

Enjoy the boost. I surmise that you prefer sedans to hatchbacks, so to go turbo in a mazda, you are going the right way. Good luck. Should be fun.

How many psi do MS3s boost at peak? Can't be much more than that (8?)

erod550 · Postby **erod550** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:14

MS3s are about 14-15 psi stock. Cobb stage 1-2 maps usually bump it up around 18. More than that isn't efficient with the tiny stock turbo. Even 18 isn't all that efficient but it still does make acceptable gains without raising the EGTs to unsafe levels.

That said, I don't think you want to push that much boost on a stock 3 because I doubt they have the same caliber of internals.

As for emissions, move to El Paso County and never worry about a smog test again.

Catless since 2005 on every performance vehicle I've owned.

IAlienzI · Postby **IAlienzI** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:14

Exactly. I am planning on having 2 cats that are not the original cats but are brand new and in the original locations.

The kit is coming from another Mazda sedan and the guy assured me there were no CELs so I'm not terribly worried about those (especially since CELs won't fail emissions). The tune on the kit was also apparently a dyno tune. What I am hearing across different boards though is that a good tune will get it to pass without problems, especially since I plan to run LOW boost (~5psi).

I talked to Harvey but I don't think it went too well. He wanted 4 hours to work on it at $175 an hour ($700 total) and said he can't promise it will pass emissions even then. If anyone knows of a place I can get it tuned WELL that won't break my budget, please let me know.

Reason is, the entire turbo kit installed will be $1700 for me. I don't want to spend 50% more on just the tuning, especially for small power gains such as what I'm aiming at (~200whp)

erod550 · Postby **erod550** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:14

$700 does seem a little high but a good tune by a professional generally runs $400+ at least.

Going turbo, scared of emissions (IM240)

Going turbo, scared of emissions (IM240)

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