'99-'00 1.8 swap or FFS supercharger?

[roninsoldier83]

So, even though the results of the long-term power options thread did not indicate that either of these options are the most sought after, regardless, I’m a bit stubborn by nature, and these are the options I’m looking towards for a myriad of reasons. After playing around in the mountains & doing an autoX (many more to come) in the Miata, I’ve decided that while the little blue roadster would use a bit more “oomph”, I’m not in search of a drag racer (I likely would have bought an older 5.0 Foxbody if I was haha!), don’t want to upset the natural balance of the car too much, and ultimately, the car is worth around ~$3k or so and as such I’m fairly budget conscience.

With all of that said, the two options I’ve narrowed it down to are either a 1.8L swap from a 1999-2000 Miata with basic bolt-ons, or a M62 supercharger from FastForwardSolutions (FFS). I’ve compiled a short list of pros for each:

99-00 1.8 swap:
-Naturally aspirated throttle response.
-Increased perceived reliability, specifically when it’s being tracked.
-Less parts to break/replace/adjust.
-Ability to upgrade even further in the future.
-Possibility of running a motor with much lower miles.
-If I chose to continue SCCA autoX, could run CSP.

FFS Supercharger:
-More overall power/torque.
-Ease of install.
-Carb legal (not that it matters much, the 1.8 should still be able to pass emissions).

Between the two options, from what I’ve seen, a 99-00 1.8 with bolt-ons & tuning can put down around ~135-140whp, whereas the guys running the FFS M62 seem to be putting down around ~170whp or so. However, the FFS kit uses a piggyback & fifth injector for “e-cooling”, so not quite as user-adjustable as a full standalone ECU. With either option I will be running an upgraded clutch/flywheel, so that’s not really something I’m going to take into account for costs. Here’s the basic breakdown:

FFS Supercharger kit $3995: http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/miata-superchargers.html

Vs.

99-00 1.8 swap & bolt-ons:
-99-00 full longblock- ~$1000 or so. (99-00 specifically as it has a better flowing head than the 94-97’s, but no VVT to worry about like the 2001-2005 1.8’s)
-FM 1.8 conversion kit $194: http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=&parentid=&stocknumber=04-70500%20%201994-97
-MSPnP standalone ECU $595: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtpnp-mm9093-for-the-199093-mazda-miata-manual-tranny-p-154.html?osCsid=a6bdd02043df8899cce243bcdd9e1d0a
-Raceland header $159: http://www.racelandus.com/p-104-exhaust-headers-for-mazda-miata-mx-5-nb-18l.aspx
-Custom intake depending on what type of air-flow method I choose (AFM or MAP)- ~$200
-Dyno tuning time: likely end up paying around ~$500

So, for the 99-00 1.8 swap, we’re looking at around $2500 or so, but with a good tune, from what I’ve seen, should be able to make around ~135+whp, which sounds pretty weak, but the car only weighs ~2100 lbs, and sadly enough, stock 1.6L (90-93) Miata’s typically only put down around ~90whp or so; so really, this would be a 40+whp upgrade, and I’m sure it would be VERY noticeable in such a light car. With this in mind, there is always the ability to boost the car in the future with the bigger motor if I so desire.

The SC would provide a bigger bump in power, but I won’t lie, beyond autoX, I eventually plan on tracking the car on real road courses, and am a bit more concerned with not popping motors all the time when boost is added. Actually, more linear throttle response & lack of excess heat due to the lack of a turbine are part of the reason that I would prefer a SC over a turbo. At the same time, for really beating on the car, I would trust the N/A motor to be more reliable than the SC setup. Any thoughts or experience in this area would be welcome. Although, if nothing else, if I do the 1.8 swap, and later on I start lusting after more power, there’s nothing stopping me from boosting the 1.8, other than a bit more added complexity.

My timeframe on this is likely about a year from now around tax return season or so. In the meantime, the plan is the run the Miata in STS, really learn the car and how to navigate it around a cone course (pretty technical), and eventually pickup a roll bar and start playing around on bigger road courses when I’m more confident in my ability to push the car to its limits and have a bit more power.

At this point, I’m leaning towards the 1.8 swap & basic bolt-ons, but am open to ideas. What are your thoughts CMZC?

-Brandon

[RX-7 Chris]

I'd go with the 1.8. I had 141whp in my black rx which was a similar weight. It was a fun car and would do everything I wanted.

[erod550]

I'd do the swap. Especially since you have a '90, which means sooner or later you're going to have crank nose issues. Might as well start out with a good platform that will be reliable and that you can add forced induction to later.

[roninsoldier83]

I'd go with the 1.8. I had 141whp in my black rx which was a similar weight. It was a fun car and would do everything I wanted.

Oh wow, I never realized you got your old black RX up to that much power. Too bad I never got a ride in that car.

I'd do the swap. Especially since you have a '90, which means sooner or later you're going to have crank nose issues. Might as well start out with a good platform that will be reliable and that you can add forced induction to later.

Yeah, good point. Yet another reason to do the 1.8 swap, and if I want more power, go from there.

[94mx5]

I would do the 1.8 swap as well. Like you said, will need a new clutch to hold the power from the kit. Might as well upgrade the motor while servicing the clutch, and then do a turbo or something later. Even if you keep the 1.6 the engine will likely have to come out for clutch, and you are still running a short nose crank. Better to replace now and upgrade later if desired for more power.

[D Walker]

I would actually do a Mazdaspeed swap, and here is why-

-Entire swaps come up fairly frequently, just keep in touch with Tom at the Patrs Group (if you own a Miata, you SHOULD have him on speeddial)
-the swap will be about the same as the supercharger and not a tremendous amount more than the 1.8, only with literally OEM reliability and engineering
- can always be upgraded for more power if you really wanted

Otherwise, the 1.8 can always be turboed later. I have a feiend with a 1.8 turbo miata and its a blast to drive. Have driven several different supercharged miatas and never felt they were nearly as cool as the turbo ones. I know you did not mention turbo, but lets face it, you live at altitude, and NA+altitude= suck, to which BOOST is the answer

Anyway, thats just my thoughts.

[roninsoldier83]

I would do the 1.8 swap as well. Like you said, will need a new clutch to hold the power from the kit. Might as well upgrade the motor while servicing the clutch, and then do a turbo or something later. Even if you keep the 1.6 the engine will likely have to come out for clutch, and you are still running a short nose crank. Better to replace now and upgrade later if desired for more power.

Yeah, I think that's the route I'm going to take.

I would actually do a Mazdaspeed swap, and here is why-

-Entire swaps come up fairly frequently, just keep in touch with Tom at the Patrs Group (if you own a Miata, you SHOULD have him on speeddial)
-the swap will be about the same as the supercharger and not a tremendous amount more than the 1.8, only with literally OEM reliability and engineering
- can always be upgraded for more power if you really wanted

Otherwise, the 1.8 can always be turboed later. I have a feiend with a 1.8 turbo miata and its a blast to drive. Have driven several different supercharged miatas and never felt they were nearly as cool as the turbo ones. I know you did not mention turbo, but lets face it, you live at altitude, and NA+altitude= suck, to which BOOST is the answer

Anyway, thats just my thoughts.

Yeah, I've owned half a dozen turbo'd cars, and I agree, at this elevation, it certainly offers a considerable advantage (last I checked, NA cars lose about 4% power for every 1000 ft increase in elevation, whereas depending on a variety of factors, turbo cars are typically close to around ~2.53% IIRC).

Although I think I'm going to have to pass on the MSM swap. The problem isn't the bottom end, but more or less the VVT setup that the '01+ cars have makes it a much more complicated proposition than the earlier 1.8L motors. The compression ratio on the MSM's is the same as the 99-00 N/A 1.8L motors (9.5:1), which is slightly higher than the 90-97 motors (9.0:1) and slightly lower than the 01-05 N/A motors (10.0:1). To my knowledge, the MSM motors don't have much of an advantage over the N/A motors, and in truth, if I was really planning on turning up the boost, if I had a motor sitting around, I could just toss in a set of forged internals prior to putting it in.

Luckily, these cars have turbo options are that easy to find and relatively inexpensive, so boosting one after a motor swap isn't too terribly difficult.

I still like the idea of not having a turbine in the engine bay to help keep underhood temps low and to get linear throttle response, but maybe I'll have to catch a ride with a S/C'd version sometime, as I know RedRoadster's car had plenty of "oomph" to it (turbo'd 1.8L IIRC).

Either way, we'll see what the future brings.

[Dange]

the msm doesnt have vvt. we use the 99 head

but if you do get a 1.8l swap, I will be getting a big turbo sooner or later. whenever that disability check comes in with all my backpay from january. I might beable to sell the msm manifold/turbo/ic/ most my piping. and my aftermarket bits like the custom downpipe/ intake cold air box and inlet.

[roninsoldier83]

the msm doesnt have vvt. we use the 99 head

but if you do get a 1.8l swap, I will be getting a big turbo sooner or later. whenever that disability check comes in with all my backpay from january. I might beable to sell the msm manifold/turbo/ic/ most my piping. and my aftermarket bits like the custom downpipe/ intake cold air box and inlet.

Oh wow, I guess I just made a false assumption based on a quick search & finding out how costly the MSM swap supposedly is compared to just swapping a N/A 1.8 & boosting it.

I'll keep that in mind.

[erod550]

I would love to eventually pick up a spare 1.8 long block and build it over time to eventually drop in and boost.