Intercooler Question

Scribz · Postby **Scribz** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:14

this has been on of the most educational threads ive ever read. thanks for all the input, it has honestly put a lot more perspective on what i want to do with this car. In terms of the WMI, is it safe? as in, with a conservative tune, what is the liklihood of it destroying my engine pre100k miles (sitting at 37k right now)

SecondGenPAt · Postby **SecondGenPAt** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:14

erod550 wrote:Port injection and porting the engine are not the same thing. Porting the engine is an advanced process that the average bolt-on modder is not going to do. And yea, you're unlikely to be able to get much power out of an NA 3 with bolt-ons. Definitely not the same level of gains the turbo DISI gets.

in the age of 5-axis cnc stock ports it is all to easy to ruin a decent head with a die grinder. Most stock heads are more than equipped for increased flow rates and swirl effect that touching them with the human hand destroys them.

At this altitude, forced aspiration is the way to live.

On a side note, I have a few books that cover turbo systems and engine management that I'd be willing to lend out as long as they get back to me. When I get back to the apartment I'll post a metric f*%^load of links where there is information to be had.

-Pat

Poet-Tek · Postby **Poet-Tek** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:14

The MS3 mod that I have found is the best bang for buck is the humble rear motor mount. The car feels much more direct, planted and confidence inspiring in all situations. Once you have that in, you'll be amazed at how much more the engine slops around the bay with the stock mount.

Next after that would be a transmission fluid upgrade (I used the Ford XTM5QS). The trans and shifter feel are weak points for the car in stock trim. The fluid change plus the Barone shift plate, weight, spacers and knob (and fine tuning the shifter) really improves the feel and function of this important human-machine interface point.

All the standard power adder bolt-ons (Intake, TP, DP, AP, IC, etc then big turbo) just really depend on what you are looking for. I find the increased noise with just the TP and Intake to be about my speed. The AP is nice because you can play with things, tweak, monitor engine parameters, use it as a learning tool, etc.

As far as suspension, I think the first thing should be a rear sway bar. I'm currently on Bilstein Sports with the stock springs and I hesitate to put even slightly stiffer springs in because I live downtown and it's pothole heaven. Even at stock ride height, I'll hit parking berms and driveway transitions occasionally if I'm not paying attention. I'm not sure the decreased roll the few times I go to HPR is more important than staying sane driving around town, not hitting every driveway and losing teeth when you hit a pothole. Having said that, I'll put in springs or coils eventually. But that may be at some point when it isn't my only car.

And I really like my RX8 wheels and max sticky summer tires. But that's mostly because I like the 5 spoke wheel look better than the ten spoke wheel look. And it's little more flush which makes the car look more aggressive. It's always sad for me when I put my teeny looking winter setup on.

The problem is this. Buy fast car, make car faster, realize pushing car regularly on public roads is insane/asking for trouble. Go to race track. Realize racing is heavy duty, expensive, time consuming, dangerous, hard to do all that often. Also realize that racing car will eventually degrade/destroy it.

I've really enjoyed owning my MS3, but I do now realize that it has it's feet in two different worlds that are at odds with one another. The World where you drive your car to work and the grocery store. It is a tool, just like your computer and your frying pan. You want it to be reliable, comfortable and functional. And the other World where you race. This car is also a tool, but very different in that all other things take a way back seat to speed.

Don is right. One car cannot be a good street/convenience car and a serious speed demon without various sacrifices, trade offs and risks. Especially an inexpensive car.

It seems like everyone wants more power and those are the most popular mods and the 500 HP gets a lot of attention, but honestly how and when can you use that vastly increased power? Front wheel drive makes it worse compared to rear and especially all wheel drive, but any 500 HP car is going to struggle to put that power to the pavement effectively in all situations.

Everyone on MSF bags on the Speed3 because once you get above 300HP "third gear becomes as useless as 1 and 2"...do they think that in a Ferrari, or a Vette or a racecar you can just mash the throttle and go from a stop or exiting a corner? Any high horsepower car is going to spin the wheels and under/oversteer if that is the expectation. Tires aren't made of magic.

Anyway, I've had mine for about three years now and I like it for what it is...but I'm not expecting it to be a drag car, a track rat, an "image" car or a Camry. I tell people when they ask what Mazdapeed is, that it's a Mazda3 with Race Car Sprinkles. I like it that way.

erod550 · Postby **erod550** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:14

Poet-Tek wrote:Everyone on MSF bags on the Speed3 because once you get above 300HP "third gear becomes as useless as 1 and 2"...do they think that in a Ferrari, or a Vette or a racecar you can just mash the throttle and go from a stop or exiting a corner? Any high horsepower car is going to spin the wheels and under/oversteer if that is the expectation. Tires aren't made of magic.

I agree with most everything you said, especially as it pertains to the MS3, but this part... those other cars are much better equipped to put their increased power to the ground. They have completely different suspension, drivetrain layout, much wider tires, stickier tires, etc, all which make them much better at handling 300, 400, 500hp than a FWD MS3. So I do think they have a point at complaining about the MS3 not being able to reliably use even 300hp.

As an example, when I went to Tulsa, much closer to sea level, with my mods I should be putting down about 400whp, and even with my even shorter than stock gearing, 3rd gear was far from useless on the street. But 255 summer tires and suspension, along with being RWD, helped with that.

So yea the MS3 does have its limitations, and is a great car for what it is. It is very versatile in that you can fit a lot of crap in it, drive it in the snow, all while getting decent gas mileage if you keep your foot out of it. But just because it has trouble putting high hp numbers to the ground doesn't mean other cars would have the same problems at the same power levels. That's why people bag on it.

And it's not just limited to the MS3, it's any FWD car. At a certain point, it's just not worth having the extra power because you have to baby it everywhere. The same could be said about any RWD or AWD car, like you said, but generally the power level at which you get to that point in a RWD or AWD car is much higher.

I do also have to disagree that all the extra power isn't worth it if you only drive on the street. Sure, I may not get to fully accelerate 1st through 4th if I'm trying to obey speed limits, but when you turn onto a street with a 55mph or 65mph speed limit and no one is in front of you and you get to stretch your legs a bit, so to speak, it's worth all those times you had to hold back because of traffic or low speed limits.

Poet-Tek · Postby **Poet-Tek** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:14

My point was not that other cars and other configurations cannot put power down more effectively than an MS3 (especially considering they may be running a lot more tire), but simply that any high horsepower car has to be driven keeping in mind the traction limitations of any given situation.

Scribz · Postby **Scribz** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:14

when you say 300hp you are referring to whp i assume making it about 400-450 bhp? I definately understand the limitations to the car which is why im not looking to put that kind of power on the ground. I wanted a car that had the ability to be modded (tastefully) with the power to give american muscle a little surprise here and there. You all have provided abudant amounts of knowledge and have given me ideas i never would have considered.

With that being said planned mods are followed:
SURE Counterweight + Shortcut + Torq R3
Lamin-x head/tail tint
CBE
Enkei EMK3 18"
Lowering Springs
CF Lip
AP
DO WMI
HPFP
DP
Done.

D Walker · Postby **D Walker** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:14

Skip the Devils own stuff and use either the AEM or Snow. I personally prefer the AEM, but opinions will vary

Scribz · Postby **Scribz** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:14

Is it a difficult install?

chickenwafer · Postby **chickenwafer** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:14

Installing a water/meth kit isn't too bad, it just more or less takes time. You need to mount a fluid tank or tap into an existing tank (like the factory windshield washer tank), run lines, mount the pump, drill and tap for the nozzle, then wire up the controller. Not that any of those individual tasks are difficult, but add them up and it's time consuming, especially if you want the system to look and function well.

I have a Snow Stage2 kit and it works, but the quality (especially for what you pay) isn't there. The biggest gripe I have is the controller. The built in MAP sensors nipple is so far recessed into the plastic housing it's impossible to zip tie the vac hose on it. The sensor also reads very low (it did this at sea level, too, so it's not an altitude thing) so you want to start spraying at 10psi it won't actually spray until 13 or 14psi. Same goes for the stop/ramp setting.

The connections to the pump are loose so I have to cut the crimps off that came with the pump and put on my own crimp connections. Before doing this the pump would intermittently loose power.

Overall the Snow kits aren't bad, I just don't think they are worth it. If you want a real water/meth system, check out http://www.aquamist.co.uk/ or http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/

Operator · Postby **Operator** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:14

Aquamist is very very pricey. For the money, I've enjoyed my coolingmist w/m setup.

COSpeed3 · Postby **COSpeed3** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:14

Scribz wrote:when you say 300hp you are referring to whp i assume making it about 400-450 bhp? I definately understand the limitations to the car which is why im not looking to put that kind of power on the ground. I wanted a car that had the ability to be modded (tastefully) with the power to give american muscle a little surprise here and there. You all have provided abudant amounts of knowledge and have given me ideas i never would have considered.

With that being said planned mods are followed:
SURE Counterweight + Shortcut + Torq R3
Lamin-x head/tail tint
CBE
Enkei EMK3 18"
Lowering Springs
CF Lip
AP
DO WMI
HPFP
DP
Done.

CBE isn't going to give you any HP just sound, skip the CBE and DP. just get the test pipe. unless sound is what ur looking for and if you get a DP make sure its catted or you will be going BT!!!

Also i don't see a inlet on your list.

erod550 · Postby **erod550** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:14

COSpeed3 wrote:CBE isn't going to give you any HP just sound, skip the CBE and DP. just get the test pipe. unless sound is what ur looking for and if you get a DP make sure its catted or you will be going BT!!!

Also i don't see a inlet on your list.

He doesn't have an 07-08, so I don't think he'll have the turbo seal problems with a downpipe. All the complaints of smoky turbos I saw were the earlier models. I had an 09 and had no smoking issues with a catless downpipe. It was on for a year and ~15k miles and I was not easy on the car. I went to the track several times and drove it hard on the street.

And the catback was one of my favorite mods. I loved the way it sounded, then I put on my catless downpipe and it was straight pipe all the way back and that was way too loud and sounded like crap. So I put the stock catback back on, but wasn't happy with the sound so I was shopping around for a new catback with a muffler but ended up trading it in. Just a test pipe wouldn't be enough sound for me if you're a fan of somewhat loud exhausts. That does all come down to personal preference though. The catback is only for sound like he said. Same with the mufflers I bought for my Mustang. But sound is important to me.

dsm_luck · Postby **dsm_luck** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:14

Scribz wrote:Is it a difficult install?

It is very easy. The most difficult part is deciding where to mount the tank and pump but i found a great place to install it. If you want to give it a go let me know I will let my Snow Stage 1 Boost Cooler go for very cheap. Not going to put it on the WRX.

The kit drops your BATs drastically. 50/50 mix seemed to work the best. If you use a 225ml/m nozzle it should be plenty for the stock k04. Only thing to really worry about with it is hydro locking if the pump stayed on. I threw a Devil's Own solenoid on there to help mitigate that possibility. I never tuned my car with the Methanol running. I would turn it off tune the car and get the A/F and timing where I wanted without knock and then flip it back on. It would drop the A/F maybe .3 to .4 richer but was much safer because I knew that if the pump went out I wasn't going to start knocking and runnign lean. In that respect I used it more as a liquid intercooling agent rather than trying to use it to run the primary fuel system leaner and make more power.

Scribz · Postby **Scribz** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:14

The main attraction and reason I want it is for its cleaning properties. I also likes that it reduces KR so I can be more aggressive with my K04 without worrying as much. I was planning on going with the AEM kit but not sure

D Walker · Postby **D Walker** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:14

I can order you an AEM kit in from the warehouse, can check pricing today if you want.

Intercooler Question

Who is online