Intercooler Question

[Shadowden]

You don't have any experience with modding ANY car. Reading stuff on a forum and actually having a car that you have modded yourself are two very different things. SecondGenPAt may have been harsher than I would have been, but I have to say he has a point.

As for me, having actually owned a Speed3 and having modded it myself, I can say that I enjoyed my upgraded TMIC and it made a huge difference over the stock one. As long as I was driving down the road my BATs were great and I didn't have problems with heatsoak. I did have problems with heatsoak at the track, however. You spend a lot of time idling while waiting for your next run and the BATs would go sky high. On the highway though I'm sure I got just as much benefit out of my TMIC as anyone with an FMIC.

Really just depends on what you're going to do with the car. For just normal daily driving, you'll probably be happy with the TMIC. If you're stuck in really heavy traffic your BATs will go up, but if you're stuck in traffic you don't have room to be romping on it anyway. And they come back down after a bit of driving. If you're going to be doing a lot of drag racing, for one this is totally the wrong car for it, but if you are, then you might want to look at a front mount. But an FMIC does also have the potential to slightly increase your coolant temps as it partially blocks the radiator.

Others have suggested water/meth injection and that was going to be my next mod before I got a great deal on my Mustang and traded in the MS3. It's only a few hundred extra to do both and then you get the benefit of both ways of cooling down the intake charge. WMI is a bit more complicated to install than just unbolting the stock TMIC and bolting on an aftermarket one, though.

Having never dealt with a turbo, but seeing the FMIC thing thrown around as a good upgrade for turbos, I really enjoyed your post. Seems rather informative. However, it has me curious. If a TMIC will come down to temperature with a little driving, then where is the advantage of the FMIC at all? Is it because it receives direct air and cools down faster, and isn't inside the engine compartment and so doesn't see heat soak as much, or does having it out of the compartment eliminate heat soak. I have seen on pinks (very reliable, I know) where guys are spraying down their front mount intercoolers with something before they take their passes. This visual sort of disparages the notion that the FMIC doesn't have some heat soak. (just learning, so patient responses are appreciated).

[Scribz]

a lot of people talk about meth and e-85 and to be honest im lost in the sauce as to the purpose and benefits of either upgrade. anyone care to educate a newbie?

[~Barn~]

Wow.... This thread took a turn for the unexpected!

Now I'm not even sure if I've ever modded my car, since I didn't wrench the parts on myself, and since I have no idea how to manually tune my Cobb with ATR, and am just using OTS maps.

[I`m Batman]

a lot of people talk about meth and e-85 and to be honest im lost in the sauce as to the purpose and benefits of either upgrade. anyone care to educate a newbie?

I'm no expert on e-85 but from what I understand... it runs a bit cooler than gasoline and it produce more gas when combust. More exhaust gas means more boost... something along that line. Just don't run (mix) so much of it that your engine starts knocking. I have yet to try... hard to find e-85 stations.

I'll let some other experts explain in more details.

[erod550]

Having never dealt with a turbo, but seeing the FMIC thing thrown around as a good upgrade for turbos, I really enjoyed your post. Seems rather informative. However, it has me curious. If a TMIC will come down to temperature with a little driving, then where is the advantage of the FMIC at all? Is it because it receives direct air and cools down faster, and isn't inside the engine compartment and so doesn't see heat soak as much, or does having it out of the compartment eliminate heat soak. I have seen on pinks (very reliable, I know) where guys are spraying down their front mount intercoolers with something before they take their passes. This visual sort of disparages the notion that the FMIC doesn't have some heat soak. (just learning, so patient responses are appreciated).

The purpose of an intercooler is to cool down the superheated air coming out of the turbo after being compressed. Air from outside runs over the intercooler as the hot air from the turbo runs through it. That plus all the fins add a lot of surface area to dissipate the heat. Spraying stuff on the intercooler can make the intercooler itself even colder than just from normal outside air running over it, which cools the intake charge down even more. The general rule of thumb is that for every 10 degrees you can lower the intake temperature, you gain 1% power. So cooler is always better.

The TMIC in the MS3 actually gets pretty good airflow. It's almost as direct of airflow while driving as an FMIC. There is ducting on the hood that brings outside air directly to the TMIC. It's part of why the stock hood is so damn heavy. But yes, it does sit right on top of the hot engine. So when you're sitting still and no air is flowing over it, it starts to heat up. The hotter the intercooler itself is, the less it can do its job of cooling down the air flowing through it.

A front mount isn't sitting right next to the hot engine in a closed, hot engine compartment, so when sitting still it isn't getting warmed up by those things. It can still get heatsoaked, as the hot air rushing through it, especially if you're romping on the car for extended periods of time, like at a racetrack, transfers some of that heat to the intercooler itself, and sometimes the air flowing over it isn't enough to counteract that warming. When the TMIC itself warms up to the point that it's no longer able to cool down the intake charge, or at least not as much, that's heatsoak. Again, the TMIC is more susceptible to this because it has the heat of the engine bay on top of the heat from the air flowing through it.

a lot of people talk about meth and e-85 and to be honest im lost in the sauce as to the purpose and benefits of either upgrade. anyone care to educate a newbie?

Injecting a water/meth solution does a few things. First, it basically steam cleans the inside of your engine as the water evaporates. This evaporation process also absorbs a lot of heat, so this cools down that hot intake charge we were just talking about. Second, it gives you knock/detonation resistance by effectively increasing the octane of your fuel (methanol is ~116 octane and has a higher flash point than gasoline). This also allows you to tune more aggressively as you can add more timing without getting knock.

The downside is that you have to keep refilling your meth solution as it will run out. And if you've tuned for it, it can be bad if you run out and don't have any to put back in. If you do it right you can get failsafes that will limit boost when there's something wrong with the flow of the water/meth solution, either a failed pump or you just ran out. Otherwise you could be running all that extra timing without the cushion of the WMI and hello knock.

E85 has some similar benefits. It is similar in octane to 110 octane race gas in detonation resistance. So again you can increase timing without getting knock. It also burns cooler so combustion and exhaust temps are lower. Plus, it burns cleaner so you have fewer carbon deposits inside your engine versus gasoline.

Downsides are that it's not as efficient at making energy as gasoline, so you generally have to use about 30% more of it compared to gas. This can mean an upgrade to your fuel system is necessary because not all stock systems are capable of flowing such a big increase in fuel. Upgraded injectors are common when switching to E85. Unfortunately for MS3/MS6 owners, there are no injector upgrades available as far as I know. The direct injection is much different than a normal port injection engine. But from what I've read on MSF, not many people are running straight E85 anyway. There are quite a few running a mixture of E85 and gas, and I think there's even a couple people on this forum doing that that could shed more light on the specific use of E85 mixtures on the DISI platform.

[I`m Batman]

Wow.... This thread took a turn for the unexpected!

Now I'm not even sure if I've ever modded my car, since I didn't wrench the parts on myself, and since I have no idea how to manually tune my Cobb with ATR, and am just using OTS maps.

Hey, you did put on your TMIC by yourself...

[~Barn~]

Hey, you did put on your TMIC by yourself...

I assume when you say "put it on yourself", you mean "snapped the bolt head off, when you ham-fisted it."

Yeah. I did that.

[D Walker]

E-85 is a fuel thats 85% alcohol and 15% gasoline. I personally do not recommend E-85 muc anymore in a street car becuase:
>it can be hard to start when cold -some cars WILL NOT start on e-85 in the winter, even on the "winter blend which is closer to e-75-
>the stuff you buy at the pumps is somewhat inconsistent and can vary from e-75 to e-95 and you have no idea what your putting in the tank
>its no longer easy to find. Here in Colorado at one time it seemed like e-85 was just friggin everywhere, now there is not a single e-85 station out where I live and the one closest to my shop is probably 5 miles away. not comforting
>the milage you get typically sucks. like anything else, this has a lot to do with who tunes the car, but most tuners in this area are simply not well rounded enough to deliver a gas milage freindly e-85 vehicle.
>since its no longer subsidized by the govnt as heavily, its no longer cheap enough to use everyday vs the loss in milage. This could change, but not likely in an election year

Meth injection, or water/alcohol injection, is what it says, a system that injects water/meth m ixture or straight water or methanol into the intake stream which serves different functions based on what your injectiong, how much, etc. But the basic reasoning is it cools the intake charge and prevents detonation allowing more timing which = more power. This is not a bad way to go for a street car, as its only active when you need it and as long as the tank is full works flawlessly.

NEITHER of these are a magic bullet thats going to add magical horsepower without some other sacrifice, and I dont care what anyone on teh intrawebz says about it. It sucks when you want to boost hard, but your out of methanol, or your mixing water/meth and you have no water, or your on E and the nearest e-85 station is miles away, or you HAVE to get somewhere and its -3deg outside and the mother effin car wont start because it wont lite off the E-85.

Every mod has a purpose, and the hardest thing is to determine what fits YOUR goals, which is why you have to sit down and think about it long and hard and be brutally honest with yourself. Can you live with a 500whp car you cant drive in the lightest snow? Can you live with a car that is so highly tuned it is always breaking something and spends more time in your garage on jackstands or at the mechanics than on the road? Hard questions must be answered, and honestly. This is why you see so many half-assed cars for sale all the time.

[COSpeed3]

ok a better question, budget is 3k, which mods in which order?

If i had a stock MS3 and had 3k this is what i would do...

Cobb AccessPORT $595
http://www.streetunit.com/Cobb_AccessPORT_ECU_Programmer_MAZDASPEED_3_p/ap-maz-002.htm

Denso Iridium Spark Plug $48
http://www.streetunit.com/DENSO_IRIDIUM_SPARK_PLUGS_MS3_MS6_CX_7_p/itv22.htmSURE

Motorsports Sidewinder Turbo Inlet $179
http://www.streetunit.com/SURE_Motorsports_Sidewinder_p/sure0101-1.htm

________________________________________________________________________________

SURE Torq R3 Engine Mount $135
http://www.streetunit.com/MAZDASPEED_3_Motor_Mount_p/sure0507-1.htm

StreetUnit Billet Aluminum Side Engine Mounts $319
http://www.streetunit.com/Mazdaspeed_3_Motor_Mounts_p/sums3asmm.htm

________________________________________________________________________________

SURE Motorsports Anchors $39
http://www.streetunit.com/SURE_Motorsports_Anchors_2007_2009_Mazdaspeed_3_p/sure0502.htm

SURE Motorsports ShortCut $59
http://www.streetunit.com/SURE_ShortCut_p/sure0513-1.htm

SURE CounterShift $35
http://www.streetunit.com/SURE_CounterShift_p/sure0500-1.htm

____________________________________________________________________

StreetUnit Top Mount Intercooler w/ boost tubes $668
http://www.streetunit.com/StreetUnit_Top_Mount_Bar_Plate_Intercooler_p/sumzrtmic.htm

Turbo Smart Compact Dual Port Blow Off Valve $329
http://www.streetunit.com/SU_Turbosmart_Dual_Port_p/sumzrtsbovbs.htm

COBB Downpipe $695
http://www.streetunit.com/COBB_Downpipe_Mazdaspeed_3_p/571202.htm


use code "surocks" and save 3%
Total $3011.71

[RichB]

^^
I agree except for the DP.

Before you do a DP I would do a FP upgrade. You will also want to keep in mind that a DP increases your chances of blowing your K04 turbo seals.

[COSpeed3]

^^
I agree except for the DP.

Before you do a DP I would do a FP upgrade. You will also want to keep in mind that a DP increases your chances of blowing your K04 turbo seals.

no reason to upgrade FP at this attitude with the K04.

with a catless DP yes your turbo seals will go bad. go with a catted DP and should be fine.

CNT RACING 07-11 Mazdaspeed 3 Catted downpipe $359
http://www.cntracing.com/category_s/36.htm

or other option is to just do the test pipe

StreetUnit Stainless Test Pipe $165
http://www.streetunit.com/MS3_Test_Pipe_p/sums3sstp.htm

[D Walker]

There is a lot of mis-understanding about how an intercooler on a car actually works. Its easiest to think of it not as a radiator or heat exchanger but closer to a heat sink. To understand this think of it this way-

The hot- as hot as 280deg- charge air exits the turbo, runs through the charge pipes, through the intercooler, back into charge pipes, and then into the throttle body and engine. On the hot side pipes the charge air does not lose any temperature, so hits the intercooler where the transition from small bore charge pipes into end tank, where the very hot air transfers its heat into the aluminum material. Now, aluminum is really good at transfering heat, but its not instant. The more mass you have (weight, this is why bar/plate intercoolers are so efficient) the more heat you can absorb, the more surface area (fins) you have the faster that heat tranfsers. The intercooler sinks the heat and the charge temps are lowered dramatically. The airflow over the intercooler dissipates the heat but this is much much slower process which is why intercoolers heat soak.

[erod550]

Also you can save a ton of money on those parts by buying used. MSF.org is a great place to find goo deals on used mods. I bought almost all my mods used except my downpipe and catback, which I got on a crazy good sale.

I'd at least look for a used TMIC, Cobb AP, and downpipe out of that list, probably a turbo inlet too. You can also save $20 getting the StreetUnit rear motor mount instead of the SURE. I had one along with the SU side mounts and they eliminated all the wheel hop. Lots more noise and vibration for sure though, but like D Walker mentioned, mods come with tradeoffs.

Also the seals tended to be better on the 08.5-09s. I had a catless downpipe on mine for about 15k miles and never had my seals go bad, no smoking issues, etc.

Another thing is I wouldn't bother blowing $300+ on a blowoff valve. The stock one holds any boost level you will run with the K04 just fine. If you just want extra noise, the Forge is half the price.

[Shadowden]

The direct injection is much different than a normal port injection engine.

As a NA 3 owner, this was also informative to me. So I am guessing that porting the engine to increase HP is not possible. I have also heard the yield of any HP mods on a NA 2.3L Mazda engine are pretty insignificant. Thanks for your thorough response.

I am still wanting rear engine mount. HAve the Mazdaspeed shifter at home waiting for Christmas...people tell me patience is a virtue....I'm learning.

[erod550]

Port injection and porting the engine are not the same thing. Porting the engine is an advanced process that the average bolt-on modder is not going to do. And yea, you're unlikely to be able to get much power out of an NA 3 with bolt-ons. Definitely not the same level of gains the turbo DISI gets.